Good morning, afternoon, or evening, whatever time it is, wherever you are. I am Malcolm Hawker, the host of CDO Matters dot com. Maybe you’re listening on your weekend workout. Maybe you’re listening as you’re running or driving or watching on YouTube. Either way, like I said, I’m thrilled that you are here. I’m also thrilled to be joined today by Joyce Myers. Joyce is the CTO of MTSI.

I’ve Joyce has got a great story to tell, and I’m I’m really excited to have a conversation today about some of the things that she’s working on, how she’s overcoming some some barriers at her organization, what she’s done in the past. Joyce has got a really interesting story because and and I don’t wanna say this out of turn, but, her story is is is one that I’m I’m hearing more and more and more of in the market, which is she’s been brought in to figure out how to stand up a data and analytics function. She’s she’s a team of one. She’s a CDO of one.

And I think that there’s a lot of people out there like that. I met so many people over the last year, particularly last year at the CDOIQ conference in, in Boston. And particularly in the federal space, we’re in exact same position as Joyce. So, Joyce, thank you for joining us today.

Thank you, Malcolm. I’m really looking forward to the chat.

Yeah. Me me me too. Tell us just a little bit briefly about MTSI and what your what your company does. I I’d love to learn more.

Yeah. So MTSI stands for Modern Technology Solutions Incorporated. So we recently, just last year, celebrated thirty years, started, with two retired air force members and have grown since then. So we provide engineering services and technology solutions predominantly in the defense sector.

So, really, our asset is our people, and we help our customer be the best that they can in those in those areas.

And your and your biggest customer, I would assume, is the United States government.

Yes. It is. In in the defense sector. Right? So so when you think across that, that’s all of the services, the intelligence community.

So that’s quite large, but with lots of nuances. Right? Even though they’re all defense, they all have their nuances.

We have aviation. We have missile. We have if the military does it, right, that’s something that we can support with an engineer engineering services, autonomous systems, agile principles, program management.

Just when you think about the things that get the gamut model based system engineering modeling and simulation, there’s just so many things that we provide to our customers, but we’re also internal. Right? We have we’re a business. We’re we are a business of providing services. So, internally, we support with those things, HR, information technology, security, building the business, business development. So we have our our corporate business as well, which is where my focus is.

Right. And you tier out of the CIO. Yes?

Yes. Yes. Definitely. The CIO is my direct I’m a direct report to him. And so it’s a really unique concept you hear and you see all the time in in our in our space that that’s a that’s not a good fit, right, to tuck the CDO under the CIO.

But, in our organization, I I would say that it’s actually working quite well. Our c o CIO has a very broad vision, not just a technology focus, and and he sees the big picture. So for me, it gives me that top cover with someone who knows the business and and is is supportive of the data piece. That doesn’t always happen.

Right. I I mean, yes. I think all else being equal, generally, the the thought leaders and the analysts would say, you know, a a CDO should be in the c suite and not under another c level person. But, honestly, it’s whatever works.

And particularly for a new program, I when I was an analyst, I would often recommend, hey. For a newer program, if you’ve got a CIO that believes in data and sees the possibilities and sees the prospects and sees the value, then then you could easily make a case to the word I I would often use is incubate, a data and analytics function under a CIO. Because if you’re just starting out and you’re just starting to build a team, I think that’s probably the best pay place to be. So I I wouldn’t put too much weight in the fact that that you tier under the CIO.

I think I think for where you are and where your company is, and where the data and analytics function is, I think it makes that makes complete sense. What do tell us a little bit more about about your background. How how did, you know, how long have you been in the data space, and how did you how did you land this role, and what are what are some of the things you’ve done in the past that got you to this point?

Well, you know, it’s interesting because I wouldn’t be your classic data trajectory. Right?

I joined the army many, many years ago.

As a matter of fact, this year, I’ve been retired from the army as long as I served in the army. Wow.

So it’s a it’s a really interesting milestone to me. But I started as a a young private in the army, and everything was manual. Everything was paper based. We we didn’t even have an electric typewriter. Right? So, I mean, we’re talking long time ago. I remember.

But the cool thing about that is you really learn the processes. And and so I was in logistics in the supply room. Right? How much are you supposed to have?

When are you supposed to have? What are you supposed to have? And that’s really all data. That’s really all putting that together.

So I I I was doing data without do knowing I was doing data.

Yep.

And I grew through my career in each level in the army. Right? You move up in in in greater roles. Right?

A small supply room, which is a small army company to to battalion, brigade, division, corps. Right? And it just gets the responsibility, the amount of data, the amount of equipment that you’re responsible for, tracking. It it just grows.

And and so for me, it was really exciting and without even realizing I I was starting to delve into it. Right?

Creating spreadsheets before Excel was a thing by using graph paper, using the first, like, d base three. Right? So it’s just really getting into data and starting to learn how to put those together to answer those questions that our leaders had. So data driven insights without even knowing that was a word or a coin phrase.

Retired from the army, went to work as a defense contractor for a little bit, and then was really blessed to transition to serve as a d department of army civilian.

And and then I was truly over a branch that managed army’s data, so that was really cool for me. I was taking that business and that that experience that I had from a logistician, but now really working at that higher level for the army.

And that’s where I really started, I think, to lay that foundation for where I am now.

Really understanding how how you put it all together, how you build the reports, how you look at what the customer needs as you build software, but taking a mind view from a customer experience and how the data flows. So I think all of those things together position me for my last job with the army, which was a CDAO, standing up a program, from scratch.

And and I wasn’t really I was tucked under the the deputy, but not we didn’t it was a unique situation. Right? We knew we needed one, but nobody really knew what that meant.

We’re leaning way forward, but when sometimes you lean way forward, there’s no safety net.

So that was, it was a very solid learning experience on what works and what doesn’t work when you’re standing up a program.

The level of oversight or or not oversight, but top cover leadership buy in that you need, how valuable that is, and what happens when you don’t necessarily have it across an organization. Right? So and then I was fortunate enough to serve enough time there that I could I could, leave and come into the the this side of it. So I went back to being a contractor and, was actually recruited for this position.

The company said, hey. You know what? If we want to continue to grow, if we want to continue to be excel at what we do, we really need to do some of that digital transformation inside.

Yeah. So the leadership said we need to do this, and that’s how I ended up in this position.

The leadership identified a need, did the recruiting, and, fortunately, I was in the right place at the right time to be able to to take advantage of that.

So many things I like about that story. One being, you know, the the starting as a private. And and thank you for your service, by the way.

Of course. Thanks.

But starting as a private, I mean, that’s that’s fantastic.

Right? Like, start start starting at the at the ground level and and and and working your way up. That in and of itself, I love that story. I love hearing that you were kind of on the ground doing the work and figuring out a way to do the work, whether that was in graph paper or or otherwise.

Is incredible value there. You also kind of learn the ropes from from being on the customer side, being the consumer of the data. I I love that story as well. All of these things that I I think really, really resonate.

But bring us to to present day. So MTSI is not a small company. You have twenty five hundred people. Right?

Yes.

So so you may be a small function and you may be starting small, but most certainly, you’re you’re not talking about a very small company. You’re talking about a relatively large company. Twenty five hundred employees is a lot of employees. So you’ve mentioned the importance of kind of stakeholder support many times. You suggested that maybe in the past, you may not have had what you have today. Am am am I reading the tea leaves correctly here?

You are. So, you know, there’s always pockets of support. Yep. You have your champions, and and so I did have champions. I’ve had champions in the past in previous jobs. But oftentimes, the bureaucratic, the nature of an organization such as the defense has been around for hundreds of years.

Yeah.

And so so change is hard. Right? Especially when it’s not understood, or it it has to be big scale. And and with the defense sector, you have to plan your budget out years in advance, and so you don’t always know what you’re gonna need. So a lot of I don’t wanna use the word resistance, but really just that that inability to change, or embrace the change is really more so it comes across as lack of support, and it becomes real really very frustrating, to be honest.

And so and I’m stubborn. I’m gonna stay, and I’m gonna work, and I’m gonna do my best. But like you said, it’s the stakeholder. Right? So one of my favorite things to share is the first follower. Right? That’s the leadership exercise where you the the YouTube video where the gentleman is dancing, and then the first follower comes, and then more followers come.

And that as that first fall as that leader out there dancing by yourself, you’re out there dancing by yourself.

Yeah.

But when we bring that first follower on, now you’re not alone, but then more people come. And so, really, it’s just kind of finding your first followers. So like you said, we have twenty five hundred, but we’re we’re geographically dispersed. Right? We have multiple divisions and business units and locations.

So I have first followers, the leadership they’re in. But now having to build those first followers across those organizations, right, across the the organization as a whole.

Because championing here in Huntsville where I am, okay. Good. But if over here is not bought in, then I can affect it successfully across the company. So, really, it comes down to finding the stakeholder, the champion at each of the areas, and and and it may have a different why for each of them. Right? It’s not a one size fit all. What makes what resonates with this this business unit on why it matters to them to have a solid data management program may not resonate with this business.

And so you really have to find what problems do they have.

What what what can you bring to the table for them? And then it starts to meld, I think. But it’s it takes some people’s skills. It’s not necessarily a a data thing. Right?

Well well, right. How how do you get somebody to dance with you?

Exactly.

Right? I mean I mean, you just touched on it. I mean, to a certain degree I I love that metaphor, by the way. It’s It’s wonderful.

To a certain degree, it is what’s in it for me. So you gotta make you gotta play the music that somebody’s gonna want to dance to, I I I think metaphorically speaking. But, you know, it’s not always gonna be the same music and and what resonates to one will not resonate to another.

Something you touched on as well that that I think, is is worthy of just at least highlighting, which is you said that, you know, organizations are kind of maybe rigid or have their power structures or have their reporting structures in particular. You’re talking about the army. I mean or or or the military writ large. I mean, there are structures, and and and they’re there for a reason because they work, and they’ve been working for hundreds of years.

And what you expressed was that you’ve encountered some you you you were you’re reluctant to use the word reluctant reluctance, I think. There’s an irony. But, really, it wasn’t necessarily just pure reluctance or or or avoidance of change. It was just the kind of the rigidity of the kind of the structure that that that the organization had built up over the years. And and it’s it it seems really important to acknowledge that because I think a lot of day people get frustrated.

Right, when when when they say, hey. Well, let’s go do all of these cool things, and and and it’s hard to affect that change because you’re talking about structures that have been in place in the case of the army literally hundreds of years. So sounds like this is, you know, a a bit of a of course, we can glibly say journey.

But ultimately, you you came right back around and say, hey. You know, find somebody to dance with you.

And and and that’s that. I mean, I just I just I just love that story.

What what what do you think is, you know, the the the biggest motivator for people? Right? Yes. We talk about the kind of what’s in it for me, but how do you how do you how do you attract people in on onto the dance floor?

So I think a lot of it is language. And and even and even now. Right? So and patience.

Language and patience. Right? We all don’t move at the same piece. So even though there’s rigidity in the military at large Yep.

They are leaning forward. Right? And, therefore, as as a as a service provider too that we we’re leaning forward as well. So sometimes maybe we can help bring the mindset forward.

Right? So it it takes everybody. But even at the top level of our defense, this is important. This is how we’re gonna empower you.

This is how we’re gonna do it. We just have to be patient because sometimes we want something to happen now because we know this is what we need to do. And we just have to be okay sometimes with letting it take a little bit longer. Right?

Letting it work its way through the rigidity, if you will. And not just in something as large as the military, but in a company with twenty five hundred people. Right? You Yep.

The patience of it. We do get frustrated. We’re human. We want it now.

We know what it looks like. Let’s do it. But sometimes, you have to be patient.

And then you just touched on you touched yeah.

Language. I was just I was just I interrupted you. The language.

So my, I have a former coworker, who teases me all the time because I’m always saying words have meaning. Right?

So when right now, we’re working a use case where we’re modeling a business process, the as is business process, because, really, the data flows back to the business process. So as we look at our as is process and we model that information flow, that information flow is our data flow, and then we can start to see where our gaps and all of the issues are.

But if we call them issues, if we call them pain points, if we call them friction points, all of those kinda have negative connotations to them. Right? And then the business people who have been successful are like, wait a minute. Are you are you calling my baby ugly? Oh.

In reality, what we’re doing is pointing out opportunities for improvement.

Right? Here’s an opportunity where maybe we can use this or automate this or combine these steps, And it’s an opportunity for you to be even more successful at what you’re doing. And so sometimes it’s just finding that right switch of language, from pain to opportunity and or or whatever that may be. And, again, it’s gonna vary depending on your audience.

And so I’ve I have found that, you know, when you’re when you’re telling a story all the time, when you’re data storytelling, but sometimes you have to tell the story before you ever even get to the data. Right? You have to find the language that resonates.

And and there was an amazing TED Talk that I listened to. Now I don’t have it off the top of my head, but it was really about telling the story and how our brains how when you hit listen to a story, you resonate with it. It resonates with you. Your your you react to that story.

And so sometimes before you ever even show data, right, you bring them in and then show them the data as to why it resonates. And, it’s just super powerful, and I think that’s really where for me, I’m working on that. That’s my skill that I’m working on because I’m very linear, and I’m like, just the facts. Give me the facts.

This is why it works, and I’m really working on being better able to tell the story.

I I I love it. So, so important. And another two things that kind of you said without really saying, but but I I took from what you just shared. One is optimism.

Right? I I’m I’m I’m feeling just talking to you, I feel more optimistic.

Hey. We can do this. Right? So that that’s that’s important. And I also heard kinda suggested it without without actually overtly calling it out, but I’m I’m hearing empathy as well.

I’m I’m I’m hearing a certain amount of, hey. You know, you you gotta understand what people are doing. You’ve gotta understand what some of their opportunities are, what some of the things that they’re they’re dealing with. You know, nobody likes rigidity.

We’ve all got it. Everybody everybody fights with kind of, you know, the status quo and the way things are. But what I’m hearing you say is stay optimistic, be empathetic, and tell a good story. Do you agree?

I would. And and, you know, it’s really about understanding the point of view. Many years ago, I served, as an inspector general.

Mhmm. So we would go out and we would do inspections.

Are you following this regulation? Are you following this standard? And then we would have to brief back to the leadership on the output. Right? And so you always wanna look for that root cause as to why something is the way it is. So just because something’s not working, what is that root cause?

And it’s either we don’t know how to do it, we don’t know we’re supposed to do it, or we can’t do it because we don’t have the resources, the people, the technology, the the whatever. Right? So when I that that lesson from many, many, many years ago, I always try to look at those things when I’m talking to folks or when we’re mapping out a process is if we can’t do it, we don’t know how to do it, or we don’t want to do it. Right? I mean, there’s and if you can start to figure out that and really look at it from that, how they feel about it.

Mhmm.

Right? Even even the I don’t have the resources, if they feel strongly that they’re gonna get the resources, people will figure out a way. If they just feel like it’s it’s a lost cause, then you have to approach it from a different perspective. So you’re right. It it really does boil down to understanding the feelings behind it, but not necessarily talking about feelings.

It’s again, it depends on the audience. Right? But I do ask, well, you know, what are your feelings about this? Do you feel that there’s an opportunity to improve here?

And sometimes as simple as that, instead of me saying, I see that this is broken. Let’s fix it.

Yeah.

In the past, I used to say, if you have ever said this stinks, I hate it, this doesn’t work, I wish it would work better, then perhaps that’s somewhere we can look at making things better.

What you just said and, again, I’m paraphrasing.

What what you just said is one of your keys to success is listen first.

I think that’s what you just said. It was listen first. Because if we go in guns blazing and say, hey. I looked at your data, and this is broken and this is broken and this is broken, and here’s what we’re gonna do.

It it could create one of these, which is, woah. Woah. Woah. Hey. But what you said instead was listen first, empathize.

Right? Be the kind of the chief therapist as as it were for lack of a better word.

Yeah. And get your stakeholders to the point where they could offer up that, well, I think this could be better. I think this could be better. And that’s where you need to be focused because then they’re bought in because it came from them. It didn’t come from you.

Sound right?

It does. And it but it ties back to the patients because sometimes it takes a while to get there. Right?

And that’s also why I believe, one, it’s best practice, to tie the data to the business architecture, right, to understand the business. It’s a best practice.

True.

But, one, I get to understand the business process. I I don’t know these business processes. I’m new to the company.

These are the subject matter experts on their business processes.

And so mapping out that as is process gives us that opportunity.

One, do you know it’s like when you when people used to balance their checkbook and you would make the same mistake over and over again because because it you just saw it all the time? It’s kinda like that with our business processes. We’ve done them for so long. The human brain is such an amazing thing that we do things without realizing we’re doing them.

So that when you take that time to map out that process, to to really look and have somebody kinda asking those questions, and we broke it down even simpler. Who, what, where, when, how, why? Who does this? Who do they do it for?

Who is the recipient of it? And you really when you just start kind of just ask those leading questions, it opens up that conversation.

But everybody’s familiar with the five w’s and the h. Right? So it’s not something that’s that’s this weird thing. And then, you know, the what are we doing? What what information do we use?

When do we use that information? Where do we get it from? And it it just it lends itself to repeatability for one thing, but it makes it unique for every single process. So you get a little bit of structure.

You get a little bit of predictability for the team. They kinda know what you’re gonna do.

So it’s not a Yeah. What’s she gonna come at me with? But each answer is gonna be unique to the process. So, it’s a and you and then you have to listen to pull up the things that aren’t being said as well. Right?

Yep. Yep. Read between the lines. So how long have you been in this role?

Five months.

Alright. Well, so this is a good transition point into, k, what are you focusing on? You know, you you talked a lot about understanding as is processes. I, wow. My Canadian just came out. I just said process.

Every now and then, it’ll sneak up on me. I’ll I’ll drop I’ll drop a Canadian nugget. Maybe that’s because I was at the UK all the last week, and I was, watching that. But you said you you’ve been focusing on as as this process is.

What else what else are you focusing on in in your first five months? And and how did you prioritize what you were gonna focus on? Because a lot of the new CDOs that I’ve talked to over the last few years, a big challenge they face is, there’s a lot here. Where do I start?

My goodness. There’s way too much. I don’t I don’t even know where to start. So how did you go about ask answering that question, and what are you been working on over the last five months?

Okay. So I started just before Christmas. So that’s a really unique time to start because many people take vacation at the end of the year. So it kinda allowed me to ease in a little bit, read the material that was out there about the company, kinda learn about the company’s mission, what everybody did. So for me, that was a, like, a nice opportunity to kind of slide into it. But once folks started coming back from vacation, I reached out and met with all of the leadership, like, at, at the executive, the the the division level, the business unit level to just really talk to them and introduce myself.

This is who I am. This is what a chief data officer does.

And if there was one thing that you think that I should help you fix, what would that be?

I love it. Yep.

And interestingly enough, it was a common recurring theme of just help us find our stuff. Right? So it it’s really that’s the same in every organization I’ve ever been in. Over years, we’ve created data silos.

Over years, we have a lot of data regardless of where you’re at. It’s a common theme whether you’re in this organization, the army, the navy, the marines. Right? It’s we have a lot of data.

Help us find the right data at the right time. And so that was really where I started, but then I took our strategic plan and really dug into that.

What are our objectives? What are our goals? What are our metrics? Who do they belong to? What are the processes that support it? Right? So because, ultimately, it’s tied to a business goal.

Whether whether that goal is increasing revenue in a in an organization such as mine or for a federal organization, making sure the soldiers, sailors, airmen, marine have the right data to make those critical decisions in support of their mission. Right?

So what is that plan? Well, for us, we have a strategic plan. For the defense sector, the federal sector, there is a federal data strategy. There is a DOD data strategy. So really tying and understanding what that is, but bringing it down to our level. So starting to do that mapping because you can’t even create a strategy of your own if you’re not nested with who you’re supporting or the greater mission.

That was interesting in and of itself. Right? Just really decomposing that and understanding why is this you know, understanding how we got to that being part of the strategic plan and then really looking at how do I prioritize what I’m gonna do.

So you you look at what the plan is. You look at what the top priorities are. You look across the ultimate gamut of all the things you could do.

And I will tell you, I started where I started because I had a champion.

I I had during those conversations, one of the business leaders said, hey.

I would love to be part of what you’re doing.

And so I reached out and said, let’s start with you.

And then he’s become the business process owner. He’s become a a very solid champion as we map out this one process. So his area covers multiple processes. Right? And we’ve picked one smaller subprocess, like, kinda in the middle just to get the feel for how to do it.

And different people are starting to see and there’s the classic, what are you doing? Why are you doing that? Why are you going so in that? The normal.

But every time we meet, I see just a little bit brighter light.

And so we started with the strategy. Met with the people first. Right? Because you’re going to pick up in those meetings listening.

Who is not all in?

Who doesn’t really get it? And And then you’re gonna pick up the ones who are intrigued but aren’t a hundred percent comfortable, and then you’re gonna pick up and maybe it’s just one person that are the in. And then you start it and grow it, and you build those, the followers as you because maybe they’re not gonna follow me. They don’t know me. But they know the business process owner who stepped up to the frame, and they follow him.

So I love it.

I I love it. One of the things that I say over and over and over again for new CDOs, go where you are wanted.

And that that’s exactly what you just said as you find that champion who’s got an opportunity, and I I consciously didn’t say pain, but who’s got an opportunity. And and another thing that I’m excited to hear is you’re focusing on a process.

So it seems like you’re you’re you’re mapping out a specific process with the goal then of utilizing data, whether that’s a report or some sort of data quality thing or something, but with the with the goal of making that bigger fat bigger, faster, stronger. Yes?

Yes. And we’re actually using industry frameworks. Right? So we are we’re using the enterprise data management council’s frameworks for data management. Right? So business and data architecture.

Boom.

Technology. So what what what systems are we using? What tools, applications are we using to support that business process today? Are we maximizing what we can do?

Are we using them to their full potential? Now we’ll get there when we get to the future state and optimize our process, but, really, that’s part of an internal digital transformation. Right?

We’re looking at the people who perform it, and our customers are internal.

But we’re looking at our processes, what technology supports it, and then that data. How do we how do we know where it is? Who needs to get to it? And then is it understandable and usable? There there comes our quality and governance, right, as we start to build that out. But, ultimately, all of that has to be in place when you lay that firm foundation. Every everybody I use a lot of analogies when I talk.

Years ago, I got a structural engineering degree. So I tend to always go back to, like, analogies that include buildings. Right? So when you look at it, everybody’s like, let’s go get some AI.

Okay. Well, you’re put you’re putting a roof up, but you haven’t actually put in any foundation at all. So those strong data management practices, that’s that rebar in your foundation.

Right? You can build a foundation, but if you don’t put the rebar in it, it’s gonna crumble.

So this this work that we’re doing, that that’s the hard work. We’re we’re building that foundation. We’re putting the rebar in. We’re letting the concrete cure, and then we can build the three thousand square foot house with the with the roof on it. Right? We can’t go straight to the roof. Otherwise, you just got a bunch of trusses sitting in your yard.

Or or it’s dessert before the main course. Right? Absolutely. I want my dessert. But is it is it safe to say, though, Joyce, that you are your your scope is you’ve put a fit a process based fence around all the foundational work you’re doing with with the focus on this business process. Yes.

Okay. And we’re gonna do it iteratively. We’re gonna do this process and then another and then another and then another. And and as we do this, we’ll build out our enterprise architecture.

We’ll start to see naturally where that data flows and intersects and and where the dependencies are. It’ll allow us to to decide, do we create data products here? It’ll allow us to better figure out, this data is sensitive, and we really need to make sure we’ve got the right security around it. I mean, we’re doing very good at that.

You don’t have to always have a program. Right? Our company is very successful. They have some super solid practices, and that’s really another thing too.

We’re not redoing stuff. If it works and it’s worked for a long time, we just wanna make it better if we can. We don’t wanna just throw the stuff out. So there’s no come in and just change everything.

It is really just look and optimize where it makes the most sense.

But be being for now, if you keep on this path, I can guarantee you won’t be the team of one. But being the team of one, this means that to do any of the work, you’ve gotta enlist people from within the lines of business. Yeah?

Yes. And and so that that is happening. As a matter of fact, huge, huge, success story. And maybe it’s just a little success story, but for me, it feels really big.

Right? So, we have a team, and that and they’re not even necessarily part of this business process, but they’re like, you’re doing the modeling? And I said yes, and I’m not very good at it. That’s not my that’s not my forte.

So the associations and the relationships, they’re probably not drawn appropriately.

They’ve offered me the support of one of their modelers.

So they’re like, we see the value of this. We see where this is gonna take us. It will help him get smarter, stronger, more skilled, and it will help you, which will help the organization.

That’s a win. That’s a win for everybody.

And because what they’re starting to see, right, we’ve we’ve mapped out a process. People can see it. They can see it. They don’t have to read it in a word document. Right? They can see the process. They can see the complexity because sometimes that visual really is important.

Then we started building out the conceptual and the logical models, and we’ve only looked at maybe two or three information exchanges.

And the model is like, wow. Look at all of these things that we’re doing. So people are starting to see, wow. That’s a lot of stuff.

And I think they’re in their head starting to see if we if it’s this little process and it’s that complex and it has that much, what is it when we look across? So so, yeah, it’s it’s exciting.

There are mornings when I wake up and think, oh, but mostly, I’m excited that that I get to do this, right, that we get to do this together.

Getting back to the to to the process you’re trying to optimize, do you have an idea? Have you worked with that champion to understand what what the metrics are that you’re that you’re gonna be looking at? Is it is it is it lower cost of procurement, or is it have you identified a handful of those KPIs?

We do have, we’ve had the initial chats. Right? And they have a vision as to what that long term goal is. We’re tying so this process is a subordinate process that supports one of the larger company strategic, objectives that have the metrics to it. So if you look at our five year plan and we’ve got annual goals that we reach to get to that five year plan, This particular process is just a a contributing process to it, and we did it because it touches so many of the other areas. So but it’s not one of the ones that’s going to slow anything down. So by using this particular process, we can really make some I don’t like to use the phrase quick win because to me, that that’s, sometimes those don’t they’re not sustainable.

Right? You you do this, and it it doesn’t really hold. It looks like a thing. You brief it on a chart.

You say victory, but in three or four weeks, you’ve gone back to the way you used to do it. So we’re looking for a sustainable win. Right? Something that we can something that we can implement relatively quickly, but that it’s a sustainable win.

That culturally, it is embraced and becomes part of the fabric that is our culture. Right?

So that ties back to the metric. How do we see ourselves?

And sometimes we don’t. We just do it, and and it’s always worked.

So we just assume that we’re doing it the best we can. So I think the a lot of those conversations are still going to happen as we continue to see, opportunities, on what those metrics could be. Because sometimes we’re not even measuring the right things. Right? As a as a general rule, not necessarily, like, my company per se, but all of us. Are we actually measuring the right thing?

It’s a good question.

So that that’s a question that we’re having as well as, like, should we measure this, or is this really what we’re looking at? So there’s a lot of discovery going on, and and I think that’s just part of the role of a CDO and in the business, right, is as you do business process optimization, as you do digital transformation.

A lot of discovery.

I I I I love the focus on business process optimization because that’s, hopefully, the business I think that we should be in. So love the focus. Love the kind of the pragmatism.

Love the idea of a sustained win. Who’s gonna argue that? Right? Like, we all wanna be more sustainable, and we all wanna win.

So that’s kind of like I don’t know. That’s the banana split with the whipped cream on it and with the sprinkles on top of it. It’s like, yes. Yes.

More of that, please. Even though it sounds to me, like, kind of underneath it, there’s an acknowledgment that above all else, we we need to be driving business value, not just doing foundations for foundation’s sake. It sounds like that that’s what you’re saying.

Correct. Well, you can lay a foundation all day long. But if you don’t come in and build on it and you don’t end up with the the house that you were building or the store that you’re building. You don’t get your final product. You just wasted a bunch of time on a foundation that’s just a slab of concrete in the field somewhere.

Right.

Right? So you have to build the rest on it as well.

What what about so so the people aspect, and the process aspect, I’m I’m seeing both here. So people, you are reliant on the your your lines of business to support initiatives that you’re doing. Process, we’ve just been talking about that a lot. What about technology? I mean, if you’ve been looking at techno technology, do you think the organization has a has an appetite to be investing, or is that something that is gonna be part of the longer term once you figure out some of these sustainable wins that maybe later you you you you go to the well and ask for money for technology? What where does that piece kinda fit in all of it?

Absolutely. So as we do this, right, as we do this business process and the information and data flow, we’re looking at what technology we already have. So can we optimize our usage of it? Are we you know, maybe we have, maybe we’re using Excel for something that we could be using a different tool for.

And sometimes Excel is absolutely the right answer. You don’t have to always go get a big tool. Great. I will I will say that I believe that this organization is going to fully embrace it if it’s the right answer.

Right? We’re not gonna buy technology just for the sake of technology.

We’re not gonna solution something that doesn’t have a problem to solve or an opportunity. Right? We’re not just gonna go out there and say, hey. Let’s go buy this very expensive suite of tools if there’s not a direct connect to the business value that’s gonna bring to it. So at least that’s the approach that we’re taking so far.

I from what I’ve picked what I see, I know that this will not be an issue. If if we get to the point where we’ve said we’ve maximized the use of tools, we’ve maximized what we already have, We have a gap here. And if we fill this gap and we do the right analysis of alternatives, right, we don’t just rush out and buy the shiny object, but we do the right analysis of alternatives to say, hey. This solution set brings us this sustainable value, then then, yes, the I have no doubt that that will be acceptable.

Well, but the thing that I like here is that you didn’t lead with it.

So me it being technology, which is so many, kind of new CDOs lean heavily towards either leaning on technology or leaning excessively on consultants.

And I’m not saying those things are bad because because they’re not. I work for a technology company. Technology pays my mortgage, literally.

And and consultants certainly aren’t bad. I mean, they can add a ton of value, but I just see a lot of people lead with those things, and they cost a lot of money. And if you haven’t figured out your north star like you have, right, if you haven’t figured out some of the kind of the strategic framework, if you don’t have an overall data management framework, if you don’t have all those things in place, when you’re just throwing money at stuff, in my experience, senior leaders can get tired of that pretty quickly. It sounds like you you you you have done the exact opposite. Would you agree?

Yes. And and I think maybe part of it is because I’m a taxpayer. Right? And and Yeah.

And I I understand that, okay. Look. I’m drawn by the shiny objects. I’m constantly looking at what the different technologies can do.

It’s important to stay up to speed on that so that when the time is right, I’m not coming in blind. And when I’m when I’m looking and so I’ll tell you one thing that’s really interesting. When you’re a new CDO and you post that you’re a new CDO, every single vendor in the world emails you. No.

I know.

Stop you.

It’s an interesting thing. Yeah.

So, you know, the answer is I am we’re beginning.

Yeah.

I I don’t have a budget to go buy multimillion dollar software.

I don’t even know what need it would fit. Right? So we’re not gonna do that. We’re it’s just not something we’re gonna do. It’s not something I would expect my company to do.

We’re a successful because we look at things the right way, and we don’t just jump into things.

When you’re an engineering solutions company, you understand that there’s a lot of linear, very thoughtful processes that are in place. Engineers have a very solid mindset. So I love that. I love that we’re able to do that, that we we have a focus, we have a plan, and that I can plan. Right? I can fall into that saying, hey. At this time, I think this would make a good investment.

And because, really, we’re investing in ourselves, and if we can grow internally, then it’s just an investment we can bring to our customers. And same with our with my counterparts in the federal government. Right?

Sometimes buying a tool is the right answer.

Right. You have to know what the question is and the problem is you’re solving with that tool first, and not just because you’re getting all the emails from people trying to and I’ve sat in those, and some of the tools are like, wow. That could work right now, but I’m not ready for it yet.

Right.

I I wouldn’t know how to maximize the use of it yet. So but I don’t wanna go too slow. You don’t wanna go too fast. So it’s really a a learning it’s an art that I’m learning every day.

Well, that’s I think that is a great place to end the conversation.

And as a fellow taxpayer, thank you for for your prudence when it comes to to to spending money on behalf of local Sam.

Joyce, what a wonderful conversation. So many insights here for for new CDOs. And like I said, I know there are a ton of them out there because I’ve talked to them, particularly in the federal space, and such great, great advice.

Thank you for the time of the Thank you so much.

I’ve really enjoyed it, and I appreciate the opportunity.

Wonderful. Alright. For all of our listeners, if you don’t already subscribe to the podcast, we’d be thrilled if you join us on this journey and become a member of the CDO matters community. We’re growing, and we’re providing content to help you, the CDO, extend your tenure and to become the data hero of your organization. So please take a moment to subscribe. Thank you for listening today, and we will see you on another episode of the CDO Matters podcast sometime very soon. Thanks, everybody.

Bye.