Malcolm Hawker 

Hi, I’m Malcolm Hawker and this is the CDO Matters podcast. The show where I. Dig deep into the strategic insights, best practices and practical recommendations that modern data leaders need to help their organizations become truly data-driven. TuneIn for thought provoking discussions with data. It and business leaders to learn about the CDM. Matters that are top of. Mind for today’s chief data officers. 

Scott Taylor 

Are we rolling? We are rolling. Are you sure? No, you mean you know. We don’t need to reach. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I see I. See a countdown. I I see it happening this. 

Scott Taylor 

Is a 10W A debacle? You can talk about that later? 

Malcolm Hawker 

So welcome everybody to this. The 20th episode. I’m screaming like the mics up there. Hopefully this one here is working. 20 congratulations and 20th episode. Cheers to. 

Scott Taylor 

That cheers to. 

Malcolm Hawker 

That 20th episode of the CD Matters Podcast. And I’m here with guest #1D, data whisperer. Mr. Scott Taylor. And we are doing this from my living room. So there’s a lot of production quality production here. You can see you know everything in the back and a table. 

Scott Taylor 

And it is a gorgeous. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Plate. Thank you. And it is happy hour it is. It is Friday afternoon. Scott’s on vacation, but. Yes, he’s still you. Know came here. To help, hence the. Yes, I guess I should have probably. 

Speaker 

I could. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I’ve only I. 

Scott Taylor 

Could have been. I’ve been, I don’t know about you, but. I’m in. I’m in Florida, but. 

Malcolm Hawker 

We are in Florida. We are in Central Florida where, you know for the last few days it’s been in the mid 70s. And today we had a cooler polar snap. 

Scott Taylor 

60 something something? 

Malcolm Hawker 

So so, yes, I have long sleeves on and we’re, we’re, we’re we’re we’re we’re bundled. I’m just happy to be. 

Scott Taylor 

Out of the New England chill. To be down here, it’s great to see you and likewise spend some time. Not doing or doing as little as possible. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yeah, yeah. So Scott’s been all week. Yeah, but a week. Now you’ll be here all week. Been here for. 

Scott Taylor 

Yeah, all week. 

Malcolm Hawker 

All week, folks, and you were off on a cruise? Caribbean southern Caribbean cruise. 

Scott Taylor 

Miami to Miami. Then we’re. 

Malcolm Hawker 

And does the earth belong be or the? 

Scott Taylor 

No bird nomadik through other. Areas of Florida. Yeah, it is. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Alright, well, glad you could make it. And glad you could swing by. So floor Florida was going to be in the Scott. Scott was going to be in Florida and we were lucky that he could come by and film this. 20th episode. 

Scott Taylor 

I wanted to time it just. It’s perfect. On the 20th, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

So like, it’s almost like you knew it’s. 

Scott Taylor 

Almost like you knew you had finished the 19th, yeah. OK, now we. Can go. Just get here. Right on. Time cause yeah, the. The podcast turning leaves when it. That’s right. Good, good, good. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Production waits for no man. Yeah, well, so let’s go back so. So so episode number. One was was was done in a conference room in one of the coolest hotels. Been a long. Time, maybe ever. It is very cool. Maybe, maybe. Ever the the TWA Hotel, which is on. I don’t like on the tarmac. I mean, it’s connected to the tarmac. You know, the JFK airport. 

Scott Taylor 

It’s the old TWA terminal. OK. Yes, exactly right, yeah. It’s gotta have access to the runways tarmac. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Right. 

Scott Taylor 

Yeah, that old Aaron. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Elko or Heron, sarin, sarin and they were the Sarnia brothers and and they did all this airport as well. Like they, I guess they had gigs doing airports, but sarnen, yeah, they were both low turned, yeah. 

Scott Taylor 

Gay. But anyway, it’s beautiful. So if you haven’t seen, yeah, it’s. Like, yeah, N.W.A. And they redid as a hotel where there for an event and we saw. 

Malcolm Hawker 

You and it was it was. It was really cool it. It was neat. We got to go. To a cocktail party. In a plane. They in a plane they call Connie. Which is short for a constant a Lockheed. Constellation, so the. First, planes that flew transatlantic were propeller, and there were Lockheed constellations. 

Scott Taylor 

Thing. That’s why it’s called. Connie, Connie. Constellate a lot more attention than I did. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Well, I’m a bit of a. Geek when it comes to that stuff. But like, if you remember that well, you’re not. Going to remember. Maybe you see, it saw it well. Maybe some of you do, but you would have seen it in the news. You know, like The Beatles getting off of playing when they’re coming to America. They came off a Lockheed constellation to make a Long story short, they built airports around these planes. And then, like two years later, Boeing came out with a jet and the air the the airports, the physical infrastructure they built was totally obsolete. So they had to. So that whole terminal was basically just scrubbed. 

Scott Taylor 

I find it. Like story for our data audience out. There isn’t it. Everything doesn’t. Work. That’s right. Yeah, and. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Scott, like when are we going to? 

Scott Taylor 

But but yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. Yeah, I’m sure. I’m sure all. The chief data officers out there are enthralled with this story of how the TWA terminal. Was built for obsolescence. But anyway, yes, so it is happy hour we are we are imbibing. The big thing about that. 

Scott Taylor 

Podcast what? That you were skipping? Ahead, not is back more story longer. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Ohh sorry. 

Scott Taylor 

Oh yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

What was that? What was that? It was the first time I’d ever. Well, yeah, so it. Was the first time I’d ever done any. 

Scott Taylor 

Of this. And so that’s the distinction. So you know that any of you out there and the best practice. So the first time he’s ever done it. Versus his first show, so I didn’t have the total. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yeah, yeah, I mean. First time I’d ever tried to do any. Sort of remote filming. Of any kind and I’m a hobbyist photographer and I have relatively expensive equipment which we’re not using today. We’re using my iPhone. Which works. Very, very, very, very. Very well and it’s flawless and it’s fantastic. But I had brought in this expensive equipment, this Nikon DSLR and I have bought microphones like this and I just all this other stuff and and. I think I forgot to hit play record like literally. I I forgot. 

Scott Taylor 

To hang you forgot it. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Something happened. I don’t know. There there. Anyway, there was a. Fantastic 45 minutes 5 minutes 40. 5 meter gold. Pure gold not to. Mixing that back that that he was. Like it in here. 

Scott Taylor 

I wouldn’t say it was that far, but I would say I was not. 

Malcolm Hawker 

You were not on your top. 

Scott Taylor 

Of your you have code COVID, but I had some sort of crud, yes. And you’ve been traveling, too, so neither of us were. 

Malcolm Hawker 

100 No, no, no, no, I. 

Scott Taylor 

Had traveled, they didn’t give 110%. And everything we do but well. 

Malcolm Hawker 

It’s exactly right. It’s it’s the the thing. 

Scott Taylor 

45 minutes. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Things we do for our audience. Yeah. So I had traveled that morning. I was on a morning flight. A7 AM flight out of Austin into Newark, rented a car, drove to JFK, whatever it was. It was and. It was. It was the last thing we. Did that day before the cocktail hour of the conference. That what? What conference? 

Scott Taylor 

Was second to last thing we did that day because then. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Recording, recording, recording and and so, so so Scott Scott was was was so he was so patient and he was nice and he was like, you know like so I’m I’m I’m coming up right like I’m I’m the rookie in this space I’m the guy with like 8 LinkedIn followers and with the man here hombre himself. And and I’m like, can you throw me a? Chrome brother and can you can you can. You can you come do this thing may be. 

Scott Taylor 

Being my first podcast. 

Malcolm Hawker 

On that podcast, he’s attending a conference and. That, that, that you were we. Were comped or he did. 

Scott Taylor 

You speak? I I don’t know as you were. 

Malcolm Hawker 

But anyway, he was he was in this conference and he was there and and for for something like this, that’s a networking thing, right? We were out there shaking hands everything, so he was gracious in giving me time. He was not feeling well. I was tired. All these things set up expensive equipment, drum roll but didn’t hit. Record so I get. I get through it and and I was like Oh my God. Like incredible shrinking Fred Flintstone. Like I just. I felt like this big. And I was like, can we do it again and it ended up being very good. I I think OK, please check out episode one and and and if you watch it now, you’ll know if there is like this this view of Scott where in the back of his head is like Hawker. That’s it. 

Scott Taylor 

I’m like, did I tell that to? Say this. Yeah, it’s exactly right. Yeah, coming up. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yeah. Yeah, like, yeah, add lived, completely. Add lived. Well, it wasn’t cause he was. He was said 45 minutes earlier. So that’s. 

Scott Taylor 

So we hit play anyway. 

Malcolm Hawker 

So when you. Get the phone out. I’m I am one. 100% confident that something is being. 

Scott Taylor 

Recorded watching all kinds of red lights. 

Malcolm Hawker 

But yes, and and I have a GoPro set up as well. So I am fully redundant back up all of the CIO’s out there should be, should be proud of me. I am fully redundant and fully. Back up and I’m not actually even talking about Jet GBT because I think I am becoming fully redundant with with with the launch of AI, but we can talk. About that later. 

Scott Taylor 

Well, maybe that’s pretty. I just want to say if. This is not working. I’m not doing it again, this is. My friend, right? 

Malcolm Hawker 

That’s right. That’s right. We got one. Going to dinner? We got, we got one shot. Yeah, we do. We actually have dinner reservations so that. 

Scott Taylor 

That’s it. We cannot just the two of us. We both have weird nurses. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yes, we have our significant others here who are also being gracious and patient and. And and they get it. Yes. And and and they get it but but yeah. So that was that was episode one and Scott’s been there through the entire thing. And thank you. And now I’ve gone from 8 followers to, you know, more than. 8 followers and eight. 

Scott Taylor 

But twenty, it’s hard to crank out 20 of anything. Yeah, just keep it. Yes, I know you got a team and you have all production cutter behind. You’ve got tremendous resources. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Source I do. 

Scott Taylor 

I do infrastructure corporate support. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I I do. Yeah, I I do. And and I’m. I’m so grateful for that cause. Like the way I describe myself, I’m. I’m like the Vanna White. Right. I just get up. There I just turn the letters. 

Scott Taylor 

Speaker 

Right. 

Scott Taylor 

Engage then. Just simply turning the letters. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Well, OK. Thank you. Thank you. But you know, the self effacing Canadian thing that’s part of my. Narrative, but it. 

Scott Taylor 

That yeah, I never got over that. 

Malcolm Hawker 

No, I I I haven’t. It’s it’s inmates in the. DNA. But anyway I. Do have a great team, super, super helpful. And to get to 20 ecstatic with that hope, I’m bringing a unique voice to the space. That was the whole goal. You know, one of the reasons why I want it’s got to be guest number one and why I’m thrilled that he’s guest #20 and maybe even 40 at 6. 

Scott Taylor 

Think it’s. 10 I will, I think coming every score. I’ll come. Is something we should look at? 

Malcolm Hawker 

So they roll. So I wanted this to be a a different voice and and. I’ve been in the data space a long time. Time and what I’ve been seeing, and frankly one of the reasons why I left Gardner is that I just see a lot of the same all over and over and over and over. And I was having conversations that guard with that were that were the same conversations over and. Over and over. The advice was solid. The advice was good. The best practices we talked about day in and day out, you know, I connected data to value. And and you know, focus on governance and and building the team and have a data strategy, all those things that they’re accurate and and this. Not odd, but people weren’t doing them. I I was literally have conversations with with Fortune 500 companies, CEO’s of Fortune 500 companies where they would ask me, call me Gartner and and and I wasn’t cheap, right? Gardners dot cheap. Oh, no, right. 

Speaker 

Well, you. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Gotta pay this. This is not is. 

Scott Taylor 

Not cheap, no. Gardeners model, you know. You pay to buy, right, right, right. Right, so so. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Anyway, not not cheap. Call up Gardner saying, hey, we’re having a problem with a, B or C What what? I do, and based on my 30 years of experience based on a lot of failures based on all the resources that I had a gardener. And access to other you. Know really, really, really smart analyst, I would say. Here’s what you do. AB and C. And then they would call me six months later. And I’m like, how’s AB&C? Well, we didn’t do that. 

Scott Taylor 

And we tried to skip to see. What? That’s where the fun stuff is. Easy button. But you know, I don’t want to do A&B. Yeah, and don’t. You have, yeah. Can you? Just do can you do BC? Do you have that? 

Malcolm Hawker 

There was there was there was there. Were some of that but but. Anyway, to make you kind? 

Scott Taylor 

Of do the hard work. I don’t why people think that you do a shortcut in any possible way. Yeah, there isn’t really in any other part of the business. Yeah, there isn’t. I hate to say it in life. Not right, too philosophical here, right? It’s like people are calling you and want to lose weight and get in shape. And you’re telling them you got 8 hours. And eat right and then they come back and say, well, I just got back from Burger King. We’re formative. Where is it? I got my ninja foodie and I can hang a lot more clothes on the pellyton than I can on the Bowflex. I found that much out, so. Yeah. And and. Well, there’s no. Yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

So, so, but the conclusion that I came. To partially right, some of it is just sheer. I don’t want to say laziness, I. What on your part, right? Well, no, no. 

Scott Taylor 

Well, oh, you mean on the part of the folks who? Are not making some. 

Malcolm Hawker 

On the. Some of it who? Who? Knows, I don’t think is ill intent. I’m a. Big believer in. Positive intent. But the conclusion that I came to out of all of this was that. The way that we mean. People like us and others are, are the messages the way that we’re delivering the message is there’s there’s something wrong, something is falling down. Something’s failing. 

Scott Taylor 

Like they don’t know about me. 

Malcolm Hawker 

No. Well, that’s why he was guest #1. Was was because. 

Scott Taylor 

Like this is The Big Lead up. This is the. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yeah, yeah, yeah, with. You know, gender analysts ex Gartner analyst. Sometimes you think I’m paid by the word. But I was looking out. I was like, well, who’s successful, who’s making, who’s who’s making a difference, who’s who is doing things differently, who is who is shaking the fruit from the tree, who’s taking a different approach? Where does seem to be working? Look no farther. What I was seeing from Scott was a different way of delivering a message. I I was seeing storytelling, of course, and critically important. But but storytelling in a different way, storytelling in a very digestible, approachable, human kind of way that wasn’t all wrapped up in techno Babble right now, right? Right. That that, that was that. Was being done in a way that was, you know, again rather accessible. And I said, aha. I can’t be him cause nobody can be him. Only he can be. 

Scott Taylor 

Him, thank God all have a. Like you played for you? Yes, I admire you. I think you’re really brilliant in this space and what you’ve done. We work together hand in. Like traveled the world, which is a whole separate set of stories. Yeah, it’s like you got the good. So let’s just put it that way, but we can’t get we do different things. See serve. Somebody would engage with us for different reasons. Yeah, could overlap a little bit, but mostly not, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

So I I decided, OK, well, this how I was doing things at Gardner wasn’t really working that well. Yes, from an ego perspective, it was very fulfilling because I’m a Gartner analyst and Lottie Dottie dot. But it really wasn’t working and as trite as this may sound, my mission is to help companies grow to help CEO’s succeed. Help. CEO’s tenure extend to be at least to be somewhere similar to a CIO. We’ve got halfway to go five years versus 2 1/2 years. And and I believe in that that’s kind of my mission. And I was like, OK, well, how do I do this differently? Yes, everybody’s got a podcast. Yes, everybody’s got blogs. All those other things. But my hope was that I could do a podcast slightly. The late and I thought having Scott for episode one would be a kind of. A great a moose, boosh. As it were. 

Scott Taylor 

As it were. 

Malcolm Hawker 

To try to do things a little bit. Differently and that that’s that’s been a. Guiding principle that will. Remain a guiding principle. It’s. 

Scott Taylor 

Like talking to you, yeah. Yeah, of course. Spent a lot of time in the trenches together. 

Malcolm Hawker 

We did spend a lot of. Time in the trenches. 

Scott Taylor 

That bonds people at a certain level. But yeah, I think it’s just hysterical that storytelling is such a thing now, cause I’ve been doing storytelling. 

Speaker 

Thank you. 

Scott Taylor 

If I go. Back in my career, I’ve been doing storytelling since it was two words. And it’s always been something that I’ve done. Despite my other responsibilities. Yeah, and when looking like I was a general manager of a business. I was terrible at kind of the management part. I was great at the visionary part where we’re going to go next. I hated all the kind of. People, I can admit this doesn’t matter me people, management part people development part was like if people were great. I love working with them. If they weren’t was like find somebody to help this person, but I didn’t have the patrons or or the OR the interest, frankly, and looked at all right, I’d rather go. Out the outside. The company talk to people we don’t know. Get them to go from like, right? No idea what you’re talking about to how do we live without this? That for me is a. Huge thrill. Well, yeah, that’s always been stories. And one of the biggest comments I. Ever got while we’re at Dean B was from the. Guy at Bisnode, who just simply said. You’ve taught you. Taught us a new way to talk about what we. Already know plank. Perfect. Perfect for me, at least for me. That doesn’t go, it serves the role. It’s not it. There’s a lot of things that doesn’t do right like. Get it done right, like execute in terms of. OK. Yeah, that’s great. That’s yeah. OK. What’s next? Yeah, yeah, the way out. Yeah, that’s that’s. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Why we kind of work like this, Sonny and Cher type thing. When we were on the road. Is that is that, you know, he was. The why and I. 

Scott Taylor 

Was the how and I think different wardrobe though. Yeah, not go for this. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Slightly and I don’t. Think I could ever recall a situation where we were. On stage and actually imbibing at the same time, there were plenty of dinners that we had after the fact. 

Scott Taylor 

Yeah, but this is different when we are yet doing the first of all, they were mostly lunches. 

Malcolm Hawker 

There were bugs and. 

Scott Taylor 

Yeah, hours. So that causes problematic. They’re cracking open a few with. Lunch, do you? Remember that we had in 30 cities. I believe that’s my count, 30 cities. 

Speaker 

They’re walking. 

Scott Taylor 

Yeah, right. So you’re up? Northern Hemisphere, we never got to the southern hemisphere. No, it they. I was working on that. I was partners about and. It was a blast, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

No, it was fantastic. 

Scott Taylor 

Do you remember all third right cause we we. Handed it back and forth there. 

Malcolm Hawker 

There was a few that. 

Scott Taylor 

There, there. Trips cause Liz, who was another. Hi, Liz. So they pardon. Yes, I did have a job who had actual jobs at DMB. My job was to just do what I was doing. I run. This was like a extra thing. Good lot of benefits, but not. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Now it was. 

Scott Taylor 

It was, uh, like traded off between you and. 

Malcolm Hawker 

And Liz, I think you know, I think. There is a lesson there for a CEO as well, and and I. Think that it is in. Not just the storytelling aspect, but having I consiglieri and and and yeah, kind of an egg McMahon maybe, maybe 2. And Andy, to a Conan right and to have and and the kind of the powerful 1-2 punch there of having somebody who is charismatic, outgoing, who can sit down, dresses up, while have conversations, you know, with senior executives. But also somebody who can execute and who has the chops and who has a little bit of St. And and I think that there’s there’s something there about that combination, it’s hard to find that balance. Yeah, it is usually. 

Scott Taylor 

Pair up with somebody, right. Then you can cover that spectrum. Right is important too. But really knowing your position. Playing that position really well, but knowing that position, right? 

Malcolm Hawker 

I think the hard part for for CDO’s here is from, at least from a storytelling perspective, the average. CEO is going to say, OK, I can do that. And and maybe you can and and that’s great. But if you. Can’t or you don’t think you can? Hiring a dedicated headcount. Just for that, as a tall order, yeah. Right. And and particularly those who are extremely good at it. If you were. To go to buy him. As it were. 

Scott Taylor 

Not for sale. Yeah, if you were. 

Malcolm Hawker 

If you were as as a full. Time you. You. I. Think for the average company outside the Fortune 100. I think that would be really. 

Scott Taylor 

Really tall wireless. I mean, even what even at you know well? We mentioned their name will mention the name. We’re just using their initials. DB even there they had trouble. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I’m Buster. 

Scott Taylor 

Really kind of pinning what I did down and right away. Yeah, been in marketing, but the marketing department rust radioactive and. Then they tried to look at OK, direct correlation is and meanwhile it’s we’re educating the entire populace, the army, the that army on a better way to talk about it, right, we’re getting great results in terms of sales people going. Ohh I get it now, I only have to use one slide. I remember bringing the pitches. And these are more examples of storytelling. Not just necessarily war stories, but OK, what works and what doesn’t work and. Think about in. Your own organization when you’re putting these educational things in place. You’re trying to train a field force or an entire organization on certain things. You gotta think about how you deliver them, and when I recreate, when I reframe the story of this particular thing, I remember bringing it to a sales one sales meeting. And I said I have 10 slides and they started to applaud. Keep it underturned as the because just that alone was significant enough at this company and that culture to be a big thing. I was really surprised, so I just kept going with it. I said but. The first ones, hello the last ones. Thank you. So it’s really only. 8 and if you only have time for one, here’s the one. Slide to focus on. A slide that told enough of the story that you could get a reaction and engagement from the audience to then decide to do something next. Yeah, nothing covers every everything. But if the idea is OK, I have no idea what you’re talking about. Why is this important to me? What’s it going to do? How do I? What does my life look like? If if I do this, how does it change? There’s a lot and then a lot of the what it actually is that you deliver. That’s a lot to put together. But if you can be really succinct and almost symbolic about it, which we were right, we have the five pillars and the four pillars. Each pillar was a thing that we talked about, all those constructs. If they work for you, I mean, they do work. Those things work. You just don’t wanna over engineer. And we got 19 pillars and 32 cross tabs and then we got circles. And that was the thing about Gardner that always made me hysterical. I’m trying to go back in history, you know? Circle the Nexus of forces that it was like the triangle of Triangularity. Then it was like a the kind of whatever. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Then it was. 

Scott Taylor 

Like circles going this way and. This year we got to use arrows, but the like getting too far. Anyway, I would just ranting here. Are what are the? Best components I got from a Gartner analyst when I gave him a pitch was when I’m sharing with something he said. Is that our slide? No, no, that’s my. 

Malcolm Hawker 

That’s my slide, baby knight. 

Scott Taylor 

Came up with that. It was like a big. Going up with increasing value and a bunch of vectors and justice. Just engaging. Just enough stuff going on that people were interested and to get engaged, but not too much to like. Yeah, well. 

Malcolm Hawker 

It it it’s it’s funny you mentioned. Gardner and the complexity there now. Now I know a lot of people watching are are are paying for, for Garter subscriptions and and I recommended some of the smartest people that I. 

Scott Taylor 

That I know, OK. 

Malcolm Hawker 

And when it comes to particularly vendor evaluations like they, they, they they are, Gartner is unbelievably good at vendor valuations and I. Can tell you from personal. They take being unbiased, incredibly seriously and do a lot of things to make sure that the the, the, the insights that they give you know are unbiased. Our objective but but to your point about the, you know the the complex diagrams like I can recall being in a couple of meetings where we were looking at a a classic two by two right the the, the the consulting 2 by 2. And and there were serious discussions. Going OK, well, how do we make? This three-dimensional. 

Scott Taylor 

Yeah, this is 2. So when could we even? 

Malcolm Hawker 

Make this four dimensional right? Like how? Do we how do? We how do we pivot and? And and it’s funny. I kinda I like to. I have amazing respect for Gardner and my time there and the and the people there and the organization is just it’s a well run machine. But but some of the peculiarities. Of Gardner I I had a a post on LinkedIn with. With the help. Of also ex Gardner at Doug Laney. 

Scott Taylor 

Doug is fantastic. 

Malcolm Hawker 

And and we were having a conversation. It was episode 5 of CDO Matters. Please check it out. I believe what we were talking about our the way data people like to make. The words for old, for for the same stuff, like we’ll just invent. We’ll just invent words, right? Like we like to make words because we like to make anyway. And Doug said this phrase, he said he said, you know, pedantic, semanticist M semantic, pedantic ISM semantic pedantism. And I was like ohh Doug brilliant. Uh, can I use that? I’m gonna use that and and and because I thought it was a parody. Like literally, it was a parody. I’ve built a framework. I I I called. The the, the, the the semantic Pedantism feedback loop. It’s it’s beautiful some of your best work. It was done. As a battery my. 

Scott Taylor 

Boy, he was get that it was done. 

Malcolm Hawker 

A parody, but then. 

Scott Taylor 

I thought it’s parodies have are based on truth. 

Malcolm Hawker 

But but I thought fine so. So I thought about it a little. More and I thought about Gardner’s business model, great company, mad Respect for Gardner. Recurring subscription. OK. And you’re selling insights in a recurring subscription, what’s the worst? Thing that can happen. 

Scott Taylor 

I stopped subscribing. 

Malcolm Hawker 

To you? Yeah, well. Exactly right. So the worst thing. That can happen for. Gardner is stopped subscribing, but from the Gartner. Side what’s the worst thing that can? Will you stop innovating and you’re not providing new insights and things? You’re saying the same over and over and over and over again, like, because like, if I’m buying toothpaste and it’s the same toothpaste year over year over year over, year over year, and we’re not innovating on the toothpaste, well then, like, OK, and I’m. But this is insights, right? Like the insights from 10 years. Ago, it’s all written down a piece of paper. That bill reports. What do I need now so. There is a built in. Motivation in Gartner to innovate and and for them to innovate means creating new stuff and new ideas like to to your point or new ideas for ideas and new ideas for ideas. So so there is a built-in motivation to come up with new stuff, and this is model perspective also. Gartner analysts and. They may disagree with this. I I don’t. There is a certain degree of competition that’s happening from analysts. 

Scott Taylor 

As well, because of that’s an inside thing. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yeah, and and it. It’s actually healthy. Like Academy Academy. Exactly right. Publisher perish and be on stage or perish. So if you come up with the next big idea, and if you come up with the next big thing, if you are the. Creator of the. Data fabric or the? Then you’re going to get, you know, prominent placement on stage. And the next thing you will be you’ll be your story. Your thing will be picked up at the IT symposium. So there’s data and analytics summit. Then there’s it symposium that’s that’s garner super. Bowl like, that’s the big that’s the. Big deal, right? And if you’re speaking on the stage as a data person at. IT symposium well that that’s. It you’ve arrived like this is it you? To peak. So there’s a motivation for analysts to come up with new things. So there’s a business motivation to come up with new things. There’s an analyst motivation to. Come up with new things so they do. And you may be looking at this. You’re like, what? Wait, this data observability, what? 

Scott Taylor 

Like, yeah. Is this right? So is that real enough? Is it different enough? Is it different from other stuff? I mean, I look at this from I I agree with you. First of all that there’s this cycle. Yes, somewhat self fulfilling. 

Malcolm Hawker 

That’s another aspect of this. 

Scott Taylor 

Thing in our space that creates this. In most cases, this froth and mayhem and buzzword ringness and the search for the latest greatest thing and. Plays into my thesis, which I think one of the biggest things holding back the entire data. Community is how we talk. About it payment and adding more to that effluvia to that vocabulary. In total kind of counterproductive, yeah. And you get all these different kinds of techniques people use. They try to coin stuff, they try to get cute about it. They want to have I I was stuck in that. We’re going back to down Grand Street. But just as a microcosm is where I truly discovered that there was this overlap. The marketing department there wanted to make, and again I’m using this as a symbolic example. I’m sure plenty of you could relate to this, so you have marketing. Marketing is there to tell the story. They don’t always understand what they’re talking about in terms of where that story comes from. That’s fine, cause they’re marketers. They they can tell a better story than any of. The people who come up with the stuff. And sometimes that’s good, and sometimes it’s not because they get totally wrapped up in their own poetry. Oh, yeah. And so this sounds great. Right. And you go, but it doesn’t. It’s not accurate in any way, right. That terminology in the ears of somebody who understands. The business or. Understands the issue is going to sound false, right? And that was my constant was like. It can sound. Cool, but it also has to. Be correct, right? And I would tell that to you, I mean, back in my history again being a storyteller, more on that end of the spectrum, I constantly paired up with somebody who was technically accurate and would say, look, I you owe it to me. I can make things sound good. That’s my. That’s what I do. 

Speaker 

But it has. 

Scott Taylor 

To be correct, Russell, stop me. You know you have to stop me at mid phrase. But tell me you know that doesn’t. 

Malcolm Hawker 

And and to and to your credit, we do that like, yeah, we, we we just we just riffed on desirability recently. Did we not, yeah. 

Scott Taylor 

So, yeah, because I had, yeah, you know. And I’m like, still behind the scenes. I’m like alright, is this right? If I have this right, because I can then take it and make it funny or entertaining, or poke at it, or be satirical or all those things, they’ll prove that point. But if I’m not based in some form of technical reality. My stuff sounds like. Crap. But but but. 

Malcolm Hawker 

So so I, I I agree, there’s gotta be basis of technical reality. But but I do also think that there has to be some idea of uniqueness or novelty in these new in these new things because because. 

Scott Taylor 

That’s the temptation that people fall into, and that tends to drag them towards the. I’ll pick one lake house. Right. Because I I think that’s a silly. 

Malcolm Hawker 

It it’s sorry. 

Scott Taylor 

For all you people in the Lake House world, but I get it. It’s like it’s a data link and it’s a house, but it’s none. It’s like that my response is always is that where my data goes on vacation and it’s just but is it and what happens is. The people you’re going for funding for, which is the whole premise of my whole book, tell your data, story, data, storytelling for data management available on Amazon Technic publication. 

Malcolm Hawker 

100% buzzword free. 

Scott Taylor 

99% buzz no, sorry. 

Malcolm Hawker 

No 99% buzzword. Not want to over promise, OK? 

Scott Taylor 

When you’re going for. And you’re back and saying some version of this latest greatest thing is going to change the way is going to fix all the problems that I told you we were going to fix. The last time I told you the latest greatest thing was gonna. Fix all the problems I told you were gonna fix. And like I haven’t forgot this right. And so you’ve got a certain, I believe on the business side, a certain amount of cynicism, weariness. Oh, it’s like. And I don’t think it helps either. When as data people we come barging in there talking them with selective amnesia like the MIB. You know, men in black, kind of. Forget about that. You know, what do you? 

Malcolm Hawker 

But we told them. What do you mean? I never said that would solve. Your problem so. 

Scott Taylor 

And trying to get them to. So we have that kind of selective amnesia and then coming in with statements like and again all respect to our own community to get this right, we have to change the culture and it’s like, wait a minute. So even if that’s true, I don’t think you will leave with that. Because it’s the hardest thing in an organization. And who the hell are you? As the data person to come in? And say, well, here’s what. I need we need culture change. 

Malcolm Hawker 

So if there was one thing that I would ask CEO’s to take away from this episode, and if you’ve lasted 32 minutes of Scott and I drinking beer and ranting, thank you. 

Scott Taylor 

Good on you. We’ll buy you one. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Next time that that, that’s exactly right. If there was one thing that I. Would that I would take away is this. Culture will change when you deliver results, right? Results are not a dependency on culture change, and when you make results dependent on culture change, you are doomed to fail, deliver results and the culture will follow. Culture changes like I I view it. As like exhaust on a car. Right. But it’s not the fuel, it’s it’s not the fuel. And when you make. It the fuel, I’m not. I’m I’m I’m I’m in your world here. That I’m not like. White roll cookers you. When you make it the when you make. Culture to change a dependency for success. 

Scott Taylor 

I mean, I mean, I just think it’s too. Yeah, I. Think it’s too hard of a. Of the thing to demand right as as valid as many of us believe it. Is right. It’s valid but. You know, deliver on right. How many CEO, how many true leaders do we know who have gone into organizations and have had as one of their primary objectives? We need to change the culture and may you know, and. Have failed, right? Well of course because it’s. 

Malcolm Hawker 

1. It’s a 345 year journey. It’s not going to happen overnight. How many CEO’s have tried and failed? This, this, this, I would argue, is one of the biggest traps that the CEO’s and chief digital officers are falling into the culture dulot. 

Scott Taylor 

I think there’s. Gonna jump up. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Why I? I I think it’s the time that they give to sales and marketing people who who are more comfortable with having that title and. Who and who learn more towards sales and marketing? Who lean more towards that’s my theory. 

Speaker 

That’s like. 

Scott Taylor 

I don’t see any. For a CDO to be Chief digital officer, that’s like. And they go well we have. You know, where does that even? Fit you. I think you could make a. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Case to to incubate a role like that. But to say chief? Digital officer assumes that you know well. Hey chief and. EOU or CDO right data officer. With, with, with, with, with, with, with, with no. With without a doubt, I mean I. Think you could make? Some case to kind of incube. 

Scott Taylor 

Malcolm Hawker 

If if you were like literally. Sea level, right? Well, they’re not. 

Scott Taylor 

Right. Well, is the, you know, another rant. Get me going. Like, yeah. I mean, yeah. You did it. You don’t have analytics unless you have data. I’m sorry, there’s a hierarchy there. It’s just true. So you should. 

Malcolm Hawker 

See my posting, only get no. 

Scott Taylor 

Did I not? 

Malcolm Hawker 

I I literally made that post to this. I literally made it today. I was. Off the like the LinkedIn. LinkedIn Post of data versus analytics. Why do we separate data and analytics? Why do we have data and analytics? 

Scott Taylor 

Versus me. Do we hate cause? And it’s like, oh, it’s cause analyst because they have to have something that’s like a little cooler than. Just the data. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Well, so a number, a number of my kind followers who are incredibly smart people have have responded and the common theme seems to be that it’s unique, that requires different manager. And and, but the counter is that the counter the counter to that is that no and and and where I fall in in this argument should. 

Speaker 

That’s enough. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I don’t really think as much of an argument is no. It’s not different. One enables the other. Analytics is a data use case, right? And and I started the conversation by asking the question do we do, should we be separating? Analytical use cases of data versus operational. Use cases of data. 

Scott Taylor 

And naturally done. I mean, there’s a natural well, it hasn’t there. 

Malcolm Hawker 

There is, but there shouldn’t be, right? If you’re, if you are building a A. A data science model. Well in an analytics. What are you doing that for? You’re doing that so. It can be applied. Operationalized within some use case to make decisions that that. That will drive operational outcomes. But this is one of my pet peeves with the data mesh. I’ve I’ve got a few. There’s some things that I really really like about it, but this idea that the data mesh is an analytical construct, it’s for analytical uses only. It’s it’s it’s like. It’s like the disclaimer right on the on. 

Scott Taylor 

The in the it’s in. The first paragraph yes, of Queenz’s book. I have, you know, tremendous admiration for her and what she’s done in terms of. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Storytelling. Unbelievable stories. 

Scott Taylor 

Honest storyteller. Right out. Right now out there in terms of traction getting. From there, but that’s the topic of another episode. But I had the same reaction right when I say data, I mean analytics. Yeah, like in the first paragraph. So that’s as far as. I read and. Just kidding. And I wonder about that too. Why does that have done? 

Malcolm Hawker 

Well, because the operational stuff is hard. Right. Like you, you can, you can. You can you. 

Scott Taylor 

Can in business is pretty. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Difficult, right? But the operational stuff is is hard because how do you operate cross functionally or or from the mesh perspective cross domain? 

Scott Taylor 

But I don’t understand in that data mesh. Premise, right again, first paragraph. When I say data, if I’m recalling it correctly. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Something. No, no. 

Scott Taylor 

When I refer to data I mean analytics that some form of that statement is on the first page. 

Malcolm Hawker 

It it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s well it’s close and I I think I think what she would say is that she’s not conjoining or they’re not synonyms. It it’s that the model is an analytical model. The sociotechnical construct is about analytic. 

Scott Taylor 

And Sociotechnical had me there too. That was like, all right, that’s a good one. I love that. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Now, now, now. So in, in, in, in. In in defense here I mean it, it is within that first paragraph. It is, it says, she says. This is really, really hard and it really doesn’t exist. Yet but. Anyway go. Going back to analytical. Versus operational, I don’t know how you fill those. Into silos. It doesn’t make any sense to me. And and what I see happen is is that when you give the. Keys to domains or functions? Or groups of departments to come up. With their own analytics. They’ll do it right and then they’ll. Create their own rules. They’ll create their own data definitions. They’ll they’ll create their own data quality rules. They’ll create their own dashboard. And maybe that’s good to a certain degree that freedom is good. But then when you have to. Operate cross functionally to. Move a a. Contract out of sales and. Into finance when you have to move the product out of manufacturing and into marketing. When you have to. Behave cross functionally. What happens, right? The answer is, well, not all decent, not. And not not all decentralization is inherently good, and not all centralization is inherently bad. You need to have both. But but the model really doesn’t. To me, doesn’t address that. The cross functionality it it doesn’t and I think a a reason getting back to how we describe things. The word we use and pointing at you, which in some cultures. 

Scott Taylor 

Is not nice, so that that. But the podcast is find the point. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Because it’s it’s it’s. How we describe things when we separate data in analytics, I mean it. Just to me, it just doesn’t make. Any sense? And and I I think it helps build this mindset that analytics can exist in this silo can exist in this vacuum. That where it has its own rules, its own constructs its own governance and its own things, and that’s. 

Scott Taylor 

Fine, its own budget and its own. 

Malcolm Hawker 

It’s not in its own idle right. I’m the chief analytics officer. I’m not the chief. 

Scott Taylor 

Data officer. Not that you’re not reporting. To the CEO. If you’re the chief and maybe. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Some extremely large companies. 

Scott Taylor 

I’d just or. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yeah, probably not, probably. 

Scott Taylor 

Deal with most folk most of the time for most of your data, yeah. Most of for what? Do that’s the big middle part that. You and I swim in. And there’s not. You know, we’re not all talking about Uber. Or you know. Or some two person start up there’s like. I manufacture a widget. I got to do that better. I got to find new opportunities. I’ve got to make sure I’ve got to mitigate new kinds of risk. I’m trying to be a little more ESGN oriented. I’ve got to improve some operational stuff. Find you know. Growth opportunities that’s that’s the raising those detre. Yeah, the meat potato strand. Get it done out of most companies most of the time and date it can help. All those companies. In a lot of ways, Yep. In a lot of areas that are relatively straightforward. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yeah, so to CDO’s out there. I would invite your teams to use old words to describe the same things I would call BS on things where people are trying to sell you or get budget for some shiny new thing that maybe necessarily isn’t a shiny new things. There’s nothing wrong with old words. All good. It’s 2023. It’s January. What do you got? Planned for the year. 

Scott Taylor 

When I’ve got it. What’s coming up for data wisman up? We’ve got this extended kind of low, you know, chill period, which is nice. Hibernate just found out. I’m so I’m going to CDO MIT CDL like you. I got a speaking slot there, right on. I got I I I provided. Hopefully not. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Counter to me because I’m just making that. It’s not. 

Scott Taylor 

It’s I’m working on it here. You’re I’m kind of in. So I’m in the. Tent Doctor Richard Wayne and. 

Malcolm Hawker 

His team do a great job. 

Scott Taylor 

10th I’ll be there hopefully everywhere with some brands there I got a slot that’s fun. Also big data London, which I’m super excited about there I’ll be up front of lots of people. So right now we’ve. Got you. I have a virtual session. We’ll see. Get in front of some folks, but in London they’re going to give me a nice general big stage. As you know, yeah, no, I have a. Fear of not public speaking so. Unless I’m not. Let revenant. How many more people can we? Fit in this room. Bigger room. Stage, yeah. What else? Crouthers Jackson summer school. They have me back for a record third year. I always do them a guest. Faculty you haven’t registered for brothers Jackson Day to summer school. 

Speaker 

Oh, that’s. 

Scott Taylor 

Go out there and do that. I’ll plug them. You should try to. It’s a blast they do every week for like 8. 

Malcolm Hawker 

This is like certifications or something or. 

Scott Taylor 

Like just a nice thing. And they’re brilliant. The two of them. I love the two of them. And they’ve got such tremendous experience. If you haven’t been exposed to them, I’ll introduce you to them because they’re just wonderful. Yeah, so. And they speak and think like we. Do part of my initial. Me attached to them we had was seeing them at a conference and going. I love these two. They were, you know, aside from their own kind of technique and how they build off each other. They’re also saying stuff that I told guys, Even so actual self selection, if you like, but. They’re successful, they get it, people follow them and people love what they say. And they help a lot of folks. Probably biggest creative thing on the agenda for this year is. It’s kind of puppet or shut. Up from home this year. 

Malcolm Hawker 

If I had a about a dollar for every. Time I heard that, I mean, yeah. 

Scott Taylor 

So that’s why. 

Malcolm Hawker 

It’s like. No, no, no, no, no. Me, me. It’s unique. It’s you. It’s unique. I’ve never heard that. Never shut up. 

Speaker 

Hey, all right. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I’ve never. I’ve heard it. I’ve like, been listening inside my head, that’s all. Well, that’s a separate conversation. No, no, I’ve never heard that. That’s that’s my being way. But but I but more, more, more. I’m I’m. I’m down. I’m down with puppet. 

Scott Taylor 

Epic puppet journey. I think I’ve got that. I’ve got definitely the basic story framed out to travel. You know, the, the this journey of the CEO, the chief. Officer the ITB, which you know the derivation of which is spun, who speaks only of buzzwords. The business monkey. Monkey business. I’ve got a cat Sultan from Mel Kinsey. There will be an antholis from Gardner. So we’ll see how that goes. And a couple of other those kind of classic trope like data characters, you see no love and probably are at some degree because we all are. Driving toward that ultimate goal of making data work for their organization, that’s all they want to do. That’s all they want to do is. Create a data-driven utopia of interoperability where insights flow freely from workflow to edge across integrated ecosystems. 

Malcolm Hawker 

And how did you memorize that so fast? 

Scott Taylor 

It’s the quarterly reports out they only want. To do those. Two things so that that is that. 

Malcolm Hawker 

That’s that’s you’re gonna keep. That wasn’t that. I saw that one of. Your posts where I thought all over the place. 

Scott Taylor 

1. Yeah, I just did. It alright, Bavaria is OK. It’s kind of my like. Sort of rip, you’re flying out. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Right. You’re testing it. You’re you’re doing some, OK? 

Scott Taylor 

Get the interoperability from workflow ecosystems. You need the analytics graph hub fabric match. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Analytics graph hub graphic fabrics mesh AKA the Spanx. 

Scott Taylor 

That’s different. That’s what you need if you want. If you’re trying to implement both the data fabric and the data mesh, then you need the data spanks the data. 

Malcolm Hawker 

To tighten that integration, that’s exactly right to hold. It all in to hold it down to. Hold it all in you need. The day to spank. 

Scott Taylor 

The data Spanx watch for that so. Big puppets, I hope. Epic I got. All like incident like. Big or I shot a scene with Barry. That’s no. I shot a scene with brothers in Jackson, so I did. Who scene with them? I was forced to write it. I put it together. I sent it to them. I didn’t hear anything from 3 days. I’m like, they think it sucks. This didn’t work. I typed it up like a script, it looked into a stage direction. All the rest of it that I talked to today. We’re gonna do it. They go fabulous. We love the so few. Off, say play. Pair bubbles and squeak. They run the the chief dog officer obedience school. All right. OK. And the dog comes and. Talks to them and they. Train this. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Dog how to how to run a? Data organization to their little. Bit to become graph. 

Scott Taylor 

And it’s one hedge to hedge and. We just tape the vocals. We just take the audio, so I’m going to dub that in with some finger puppets, so I don’t really have to do this is I don’t know how deep you want me to go on some of this. I’m all in, I’m learning myself and I got to get better at Puppet. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I’m always OK. 

Scott Taylor 

I gotta. You know, the puppets with the stick and. 

Malcolm Hawker 

The arm? Yeah, got married. 

Scott Taylor 

I learned that no, not the marionette. Ohh like you have one hand like ohh like. Not Ernie. He’s got hands and gloves is. Actually A2. Person puppet, but like Bert and Kermit are just one hand, and then you’ve got a stick that moves the other armor and. That’s so that’s coming soon. 

Malcolm Hawker 

That’s what I’m working on. The LinkedIn near you. 

Scott Taylor 

To yeah to a screen near you the. Puppets of data. Their epic journey follows CDO, the chief dog officer and all his friends. Dealing with turmoil that many of these people who are listening to this. 

Malcolm Hawker 

At the deal with so. So that sounds like a. So that sounds like a busy year and inevitably you will be bouncing on a. Few other kind of yeah. As opportunities as as they come and. 

Scott Taylor 

Yep, monthly show with the folks at locate the wonderful Geo location that you appear and that thing. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Uh huh, I. I did. I did. I did. 

Scott Taylor 

Ask the experts. Every month we bring in an expert on geolocation data, so that’s fun. That’s a that’s a steady gig. I like that. And working with a couple of other brands where I. Can and doing data shows awesome. So what’s that? 

Malcolm Hawker 

What, what? What’s the curveball? What’s the one thing we may not be thinking about? Like it is there is there like any sort of like. Black Swan event that you see out there like any sort of transformational thing you. See, I know it’s kind of. An odd question. 

Scott Taylor 

Yeah, I don’t really pay attention to that in that way. I always say I’m not a trends guy. Yeah, I’m the guy who goes show me these top 10 trends and I’ll show you. Most, if not all of them aren’t. Going to work right, unless you have. What we talk about? So I kind of sit cause I don’t see I can’t pick up on those things the way. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Are you for are you for hire? Like can can I can I? Can I hire you? You don’t know what I. 

Scott Taylor 

Want to hire you for yet? 

Malcolm Hawker 

Like no getting but. Getting back and this isn’t for for. Selling but like. If if I wanted data story to be told I’m a CEO and I want the data story to be. Is that something you could could guide? 

Scott Taylor 

Me on. Yes, I think so. 

Speaker 

Scott Taylor 

Haven’t done like direct consulting, but the first thing I would say. To somebody is. By my book. Yeah, because that has enough stuff in it to help you sort. Of put that together. What I’ve and I’ve done some corporate events, so that’s another thing I do. That’s another thing I do if you’re interested, so corporate events. Which I define as. Kind of internal. You don’t promote them. I did one for a bank. I’ve done one for a standards body. I did one for a manufacturer. Similar to what I did at D&B, when you know a big client or somebody would have a day a day-to-day right there. Oh, here a business, right? Or they’re having their. Own team to or kick. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Off or something? So for this. 

Scott Taylor 

Manufacturer they were. Kicking off a brand new sales system. It had a lot of pieces. It was a two day event. They had me talk about the importance of data governance, data management and the founder. 

Speaker 

I’ll stop. 

Scott Taylor 

Yeah, before the and I played on OK, all this great, sexy stuff. You’re they’re gonna you know you’re gonna end the day with you can’t. Get there, unless you. Hair standards search before we create, you know, I mean all these things that this that they did, the governor’s team was. Touting as what they needed to do, but I added my spin to it and, you know, being the third party and made a simple way to talk about it. And like that also, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Well, on that, thank you. Are we? Thank you so much for it. I just decided to lose my voice right at the end. Episode 20 Studio Matters if you wanna date a storyteller. If you want to. Learn how to date a storyteller. If you want to hire a. Data storyteller this this, this guy. This is the real deal. Right here, there’s nobody better at telling stories. Data then the data whisperer. Scott Taylor. My GoPro is on the verge. Of dying, right? So yeah, you. Can you can hear you can hear the. 

Scott Taylor 

The battery is dead, so. 

Malcolm Hawker 

We can. We can hear. We can hear the beeping, but anyway, thank. You so much for tuning in today. Thank you so much for subscribing to the podcast. Thank you for following on LinkedIn if you aren’t already, please do I look forward to seeing you on the next episode of CDO Matters Podcast sometime very very soon. Thanks all.