Malcolm Hawker 

Hi, I’m Malcolm Hawker and this is the CDO Matters podcast. The show where I dig deep into the strategic insights, best practices and practical recommendations that modern data leaders need to help their organizations become truly data-driven. TuneIn for thought provoking discussions with data. IT and business leaders to learn about the CDO matters that are top of mind for today’s chief data officers. Good morning, afternoon or evening, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the CDO Matters Podcast. I’m your host Malcolm Hawker. I’m lucky today to be joined by Mr. Kyle Winterbottom. He’s the CEO and founder of Orbiton, which is a boutique talent agency that focuses on the on the data and analytics. Kyle and I met each other through some kind of shared acquaintances on on on LinkedIn. We’ve had a number of great conversations on LinkedIn and and and offline. We share some of this. I say some of the same thoughts around the kind of the state of the nation when it comes to data and analytics, and when it comes to some of the the. Challenges that that, that U.S. data practitioners face really looking forward to, to, to picking Kyle’s brain. Today. So with that. Welcome, Kyle. Thank you for being here. 

Kyle Winterbottom 

No problem at all. Thank you for having. Me. It’s a pleasure. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Why don’t you just kind of spend I I I introduced your company, but I would. I would love our listeners just to hear a. Little bit more about what you. Do where you specialize in and. The the the. Needs that you serve for your clients. 

Kyle Winterbottom 

Yeah, absolutely. So I’ve been in the data and analytics talent space for the last 1213 years now. So I guess our vision, we’re a a boutique talent solutions business. We operate exclusively within the world of data and analytics. So that’s literally all we do. So obviously as you can tell from the accent, we are headquartered here in the UK, but we have a presence out in North America as well and and work across the UK, Europe and and the USA predominantly. I guess we we probably differ to most either executives or recruitment. Agencies, as most people would know them and kind of lean to both sides of that coin depending upon the specific needs of. The organisations we partner with so you know, we work with major Footsie, one hundreds, fortune one, hundreds, all the way through to kind of start up scale up organisations and everything in between really typically start at the the leadership level. So that’s probably where we we are most known and respected. And then beyond that helping those. Data leaders CDO type of people to to build out their technical teams beneath them, you know. So that could look like helping an organization to find a singular CDO it could. The A small to mid size enterprise that needs to hire 5-6 people right now. It could be a Fortune 100 that plans to hire 90 people over the next 18 months and we would kind of, you know tactically and strategically embed ourselves within those businesses to help deliver that talent strategy road map. And then over a series of phases you know get those people into that business. So that’s the. That’s the the short. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I should have mentioned at the start of this, obviously you can see that I have a new sign. Hopefully it’s not, hopefully. It’s not too disruptive. I’m I’m trying to be. I guess the next day that Joe. Rogan is it? Is it displaying correctly Karl? Or is it mirrored? Is it weird? Is it? 

Kyle Winterbottom 

Is it? It’s so it’s it’s mirrored to me. Yeah, it’s the wrong way. To me. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Ohh goodness. OK there so. 

Kyle Winterbottom 

There we go. Yep, that’s better. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I want to figure. Out so so this, this this. This sign has been the bane of my existence for the last like 5 months. I bought it like 5 months ago. And and as it turns out, LED signs, don’t they they they flicker. Right. There’s there isn’t a constant light with LED. Like if if you if we salute. It into super slow mode you would. See on off on off on, off. Which which means that. Digital cameras have a hard time with it because digital cameras are. Capturing the same way it’s called a frame rate and if the frame rate of the camera is not the same of the frame rate as the sign it creates. This drop it’s like literally like this this. Just and I tested webcam after webcam. After webcam I tested multiple DSLR’s and Nikon Z5, Thirty 300, Nikon 5500. None of them worked. They all kind of created. This throb until I until I tried my old iPhone 8. So we’re running an iPhone. 8 This is the the video capture. 

Speaker 

Oh well. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Here it’s the only one. That, that, that doesn’t throb. Anyway, thanks for helping with the sign and and and my. My apologies for for taking some, some some wind out of out of the sales of of you talking about your fantastic company because I know you guys are doing great things and I know you’re incredibly active in the market and you’ve got your finger on the pulse of the market for for talent in, in the CDO space, so. Let’s let’s go. Back to that enough about my my side. When it comes to the market for let’s focus on CDO’s or VP’s of data and analytics, you know pseudo maybe, maybe not a CDO enrolled but CDO and responsibility. What? What are you seeing up there right now? I mean, obviously I think what we are here in late 2022, a lot of people are afraid of global recession. Kind of global economic slowdowns. Just high level. What are you seeing the market for top talent in the data analytics space? 

Kyle Winterbottom 

So, well, I think at. The at the leadership level particularly. I think the market is is in a bit of turmoil to be honest with you. I think broadly speaking, most organisations don’t really understand what they’re looking for or what they should be looking for, but equally there’s quite a lot of. Data leaders out there who are open to exploring new opportunities for a whole host of different reasons, and I think that’s kind of created this. You know, imbalance in the market where you’ve got in comparison to some of the more technical disciplines. You know, if you think about data engineering as an example, right over the last 2-3 years, that’s just been the the. The big thing? And there are, you know, just so few people out there in comparison to the number of organizations. On a higher that skill set and higher it at scale. So this the the kind of CDO or kind of data? Market is is the the flip side of that at the moment, unfortunately where you’ve got you know only a few select actual leadership roles and that’s probably a good point to to make right is that there’s a lot, there’s a lot out there by title in terms of what look you know might look like a relevant role for people who are listening to this. But when they scratch beneath the surface, you know where. It’s the the more logistical things like remuneration, or whether it’s actual the scope of the opportunity or whether it’s the appetite and investment from the business. When you scratch beneath all of that, unfortunately there are very few roles that I think many people would be, you know, quick to, to kind of jump out of where they’re at. If if that makes sense. So that that’s kind of broadly speaking, I think, where? Where we’re at from a leadership perspective. 

Malcolm Hawker 

So I assume that that translates into way, way, way more applicants than there are positions. What are you seeing from the perspective of the quality of those applicants? I think I’ve seen you. You post a few things on LinkedIn that really kind of says, hey, you know, just because you think you may be ready, you probably aren’t based on some of the quality of the resumes you’re seeing is is that consistent with what you’re seeing? 

Kyle Winterbottom 

I think so. I mean, I think you know, so I I did a bit of a just no nerding out really and I’ll come over you know data and recruitment. The two topics that that I obviously know and I I started to collate to a lot of the job adverts that I was seeing online and and the disparity between leadership job adverts. And then the more technical job adverts. So I’ve got a host of them saved on my on my laptop. But you know what you’d see from that is very clearly, you know, if it was a, I don’t know, a senior data engineering role, for example. That might get a handful of applicants if that over a period of two to three months, right? If there is a leadership, you know, quote UN quote leadership role Director, VP CDO type of role, that will get hundreds of applicants within a matter of minutes. So I think there’s, you know, the reality of that situation is that, you know, there’s probably only going to be a handful of those people. Who are right for that role at that particular time, but obviously everyone in the ascendance of their. Careers is obviously pinning towards that. The role of leadership, right? Because that that kind of for most people is the. Seen as the pinnacle right of the of the kind of career ladder, the career path where the career trajectory is to get into leadership because that shows progression and and success and and so on and so forth. So yeah, I think that’s that’s probably a fair a fair assumption for sure. 

Malcolm Hawker 

So in the more technical roles, that’s where you’re seeing the the most opportunity potentially is is I guess is what I’m hearing you say. Kind of going back. Maybe 3-4 years ago. You you can keep me honest on this, but I mean, everybody wanted to. Be a data scientist. Right. 

Speaker 

Malcolm Hawker 

And and it and it was just this massive inflation in and salary, even inflation and. Title for a lot of people and. Every everybody wanted to to be. To be a data scientist, and it seems like I I was at a roundtable about three or four months ago. Back when I used to live. In Austin for for a. Former employer of yours? Actually, that was that was hosting. That was kind of hosting a data leader roundtable and a lot of the people there that. Were talking about the the. The Sheen kind of coming off. The the data science role. Are you seeing the same thing? 

Kyle Winterbottom 

Yeah, without a shadow of a doubt. I think you know, if you go back five years, you know, we have the whole. Data science is the sexiest job of the 21st century, and all of that, and I think that. That kind of, you know, pushed this wave of education within that discipline. Right. So you had a lot of people then go and either retrain to be a data scientist or people in university would study to be a data scientist. Many organizations then. Actually came to the realization. Hang on a minute. We’re 1,000,000 miles away from needing this many data scientists in our organization. And you know the the whole resurgence of data management, data governance, data engineering came back to the forefront, so. Again, that created then this surplus of of talent right in the data science space where there were just a lot more people than there were jobs. All of a sudden and data engineering kind of came became what? Data science. Was, you know. So, so now if I think about the last two years, I reckon the bulk of our work has been helping organizations to scale there, you know, quote UN quote data analytics capability. But it’s it’s. Been data engineering prominent predominantly for for most of that and. That that marketplace is in the same situation as data science was five years ago, where, you know, people are getting stupid uplifts in terms of salary, stupid uplifts in terms of title. Just because you know the number of people out there that can do that job are so few and far between and. You know it’s. Not just that. Every business out there is looking for these types of people, but they’re not just looking for them in ones and twos, they’re looking for them in 6-7, eights and nines, right? And there might only be a handful of people in any one area that can, with the right tech stack, the right skill set, the right location, whatever the case may be. That that can do that. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Job so to the demand there. Is that what? Is that a function of? I mean, I I certainly when I. Was still a Gartner. Early in the year, what I. Saw a lot of was. Road map and prioritization around loosely digital transformation. Just just it’s. Kind of a catch all. Could be anything. From building an e-commerce site to, you know, optimizing your supply chain and on and on. But what I saw was a. Lot of companies running to that getting into. 234 year. Long commitments around some form of digital transformation. Most of them are pretty much like halfway there and not even all the way there. I suspect a lot of the demand for what you’re seeing for data engineering is. Coming as as a. Result of that. Is that, do you concur or are there other forces that are kind of driving us? 

Kyle Winterbottom 

Yes, I’m in the whole digital transformation movement has obviously been a big part of this and that was certainly expedited through the COVID pandemic, right. You know, when many businesses were thrust into that world without even realizing it. But I think even prior to that, many organizations had kind of started on this data analytics. Journey in a in a quest to be, you know, data-driven in quotation Marks and and. You know, jumped. Feet first, in my opinion, into the wrong areas, right, you know, so they went straight for this. The sexy silver bullet type stuff, you know that we’re trying to do AI and machine learning projects, and they just weren’t ready for that. And I think that kind of created that that spiral of then, OK, well, we spent all this money. We’re too far in to kind of give it up. So we need to backtrack and get. Kind of start fixing some of the foundations and I think that’s why you know the last 18 to 24 months. You know, we’ve seen a massive resurgence around data governance roles and actually senior data governance roles as well which? Has been nice to see. That, coupled with the you know, the more technical stuff around the data engineering side. They’ve certainly been the, the kind of hot hot topics and you might ask me this later or not, but I you know I’ve put my hat on the. The data product space being the the big thing for for 23 and beyond. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Could agree more? Let’s let’s let’s. Let’s talk about. That in a. Bit do you want to turn off on the on the kind of the data engineering and the competitiveness in that space there and and hiring for more data engineers? So let’s let’s assume I am a VP Data and analytics or I’m a CEO and hopefully I. Listen to this podcast. What are some of? The kind of the tips that you would give. To somebody, probably closer to my age hiring, probably somebody closer to half my age. I’ll leave the witness a little bit here. Like what I’ve seen as I’ve progressed. I’ve I’ve seen kind of some of the core motivators change. There’s always money. Right? And and that’s a good thing. But what I’m hearing now for from younger people in the space is is more of a need for what I will just kind of loosely. Well, some sense of purpose, right? Some sort of greater good that that goes beyond just, you know, pay me, do do, do you agree? Do you concur? And and if so, should that be part of a hiring strategy for for CDO? 

Kyle Winterbottom 

100% so you know, I think I think there’s been a dramatic change from even five years ago with with this. So if I think about, you know the the the time scales of when we were well in the midst of that data science hype, I think most data analytics practitioners. Across the board, really, you know, loosely speaking, we’re interested in how much are you gonna pay me? Will will the brand name look good on my resume and what type of tech am I going to get to play with? I think they were the key three factors now because I think a lot of a lot of people made decisions based on those factors and went into organizations that were probably paying lip service to being data. Driven right and therefore have kind of come out of those experiences feeling a little bit burnt. So they’re kind of wants needs and desires now of of have changed. So I kind of talk about these three, three key areas of kind of. Being, you know, being able to demonstrate to people that you’re trying to hire, that their work will be visible, it will be valuable and it’ll be impactful. And that kind of speaks to, you know, your sense of purpose comment cause I think that’s where most people have felt burnt, right. You know, they’ve been in these big engineering or data science software teams, whatever the case may be. And almost felt like they’ve been on a production line of of projects, you know, project lands on their desk. It gets done. It’s off out there into the ether. They never hear about it again. They can’t see it. They don’t know if it’s good, bad, ugly. They get no. It’s never used, it adds no value, and then they’re kind of sat there going. You know, this doesn’t really for filming, you know, I’m not. I’m not seeing the the product of of. All my hard. So I think the last two years. Especially I think we’ve seen, you know, especially with the, the the coupling of what the pandemic did for people in terms of you know, remote work and work life balance and. Like that, I think certainly you know that whole visible, valuable impactful is an area that that I talk to a lot of data leaders about when they’re hiring and trying to kind of construct that kind of compelling narrative around. You know it’s almost like creating a data analytics. Value proposition inside your employer value proposition you know because I think the times of unless you’re a a Facebook or an Amazon or a Google or Tesla or Netflix or whatever the case may be. Right. Unless you are one of those businesses, you’re kind of the rest, right and? Yeah, people will work. For those businesses, irrespective of how bad the pay is, how bad the tech is, how bad the projects are, how how visible their work is or not, but to work elsewhere, I think that’s what kind of where you get the competitive advantage now. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Right. So what I think I’m hearing you say that you know kind of to build the data and analytics culture within a broader corporate. Getting back to the the kind of the notion about being purpose driven, I mean obviously this, this stresses the need for some sort of data strategy and as a part of that. Strategy to to. To create a narrative. And to create a mission or strategy that that kind of maybe stretches beyond somehow, someway, what whatever you’re doing. Kind of day in and. Day out. So that’s interesting, I. Think that’s an important message? Because if you are working for a company that makes breakfast cereal or that makes widgets, or that makes you know, heating and cooling components, it’s it’s not the Fang world, right? But still, but still an important world. And how and how and how do you bring that kind of that broader sense of purpose into into building consumer goods that? People wouldn’t view as sexy. 

Kyle Winterbottom 

Yeah, well, I. Think and I think that you know it’s it’s interesting because the way I’ve sometimes framed this is, you know, when you’re as a data leader trying to, you know, speak with your board or your CEO and explain to them how this data strategy is going to provide value for the business. It’s almost the same. Conversation just flipped on its head, right? It’s this. Is this is? What our data strategy is, because it’s gonna help us achieve this for the business and their objectives. And this is the role that you play in that, you know, so that then they can see the the bigger picture. That’s the end result and there’s a pathway for me to play a part in that as opposed to, you know, put it runs on my desk. It’s done. It’s off. I’ll never get to see it again. 

Malcolm Hawker 

So so you mentioned a top trend for 2023 data as a product. Let’s talk about that. But just to tie off on this notion notion on a sense of purpose. One of the things that I see coming and and I love your thoughts on this is loosely kind of tied to EG environmental, societal governance, kind of pressures within. Within organizations. I think a little bit of wind is kind of left the SG sales because of everything that’s happened post COVID anergy crisis in Europe, policy changes in Europe as a result of shortage of gas and other things. However, I don’t think SG is going away and one of the things that I actually see coming down the pipe maybe this year, but maybe more 2024. Is data and analytics leaders being given sustainability targets, meaning don’t hoard data? Because I’ve recently. I’ve recently read some. Stats that say anywhere upwards the the number varies depending depending on who you ask, anywhere from 50 to 80% of data sitting in data centers is known as dark data. It just it just sits there. It doesn’t. It just collects dust. It’s never used. So that could be potentially one way to create that sense of purpose within it. And that looks group. OK, listen, you know we’re we’re we’re going to through our governance program, we’re going to institute and execute policies to reduce our, our our global carbon footprint by getting rid of data that is collecting dust. So I I think I think that could be interesting. To the data as a. Product I I I mean. Maybe before we maybe before we dive there you mentioned that you you thought that was something happening in 2023 and one of the trends for 2023, what are what are two or three others? 

Kyle Winterbottom 

Oh, it’s a good question. So I think in the realms of leadership, I think the day leadership market will will have its day again. For me, it’s just a matter of when and if that will be 2023 or or maybe a little bit beyond. And I say that because I think the the instability in that market at the moment. Is, is, is so huge that I think a lot of hiring decisions are being made wrongly. Right. So I think many businesses, especially the ones that are at the start of their journey that don’t really know what they should be doing when they should be doing it, why they should be doing it, et cetera, often go to market with this. Perception of this is what data leadership should look like for us, and it’s it’s it’s usually some kind of technical component. So they end up. You know that usually hiring someone with the right profile for the job that they think they need to hire for, but probably the wrong profile for the job, they actually should be hiring for. And then you get into this cycle of. You know, we haven’t proved any value. The 10 year is whatever 18 months, 20 months. Two years and off they go, and then they start again. And I think there’s a shelf life to how long that can keep happening for until organizations after kind of take a look in the mirror and say, OK, you know, maybe This Is Us and not them. And Malcolm, I can’t tell you the amount of times where you know, I personally feel the best work we do is when we get to sit with an organization and talk through what we’re trying to achieve and there’s been plenty of times where we’ve worked with organisations and and rest rescoped and reshaped the profile of the role to suit what they’re trying to achieve as opposed to. What they thought they needed, but in many other instances that equally doesn’t happen, right? They they don’t want my advice, they wanna go and get a person with a data science and ML background to be their CDO because that’s what they think they need. And ultimately I think to offer. Rate at the true sea level, that is an additional skill set beyond data analytics. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Very much so. So that does speak to tenure and let’s certainly park that one again, data as a product, I’m I’m all in. Sign me up. I spent the 1st 1015 years of my professional career on on a product track. I was a chief product officer at a small startup I’ve hired. And, you know, recruited managed a team of product. And I love, love, love conceptually product management injected into data management. I love that. Are you starting to see more CEO’s and data leaders looking to? Senior product leaders into their organization. 

Kyle Winterbottom 

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So you know the the data product owner and data product manager roles, they’ve they’ve probably been kicking about more so than they were over the last six months, quite free. Currently, and we’re starting to see that creep up to the leadership level as well, right? You know, so here in the UK, I know there’s a slight difference in titles between and levels between the UK and the US typically across the board. But you know, we’re starting to see a lot of head of and director of data or analytics product type of roles coming up now. You know that would that would sit beneath the CDO’s and and own day, the day of product discipline as as its own which is. 

Malcolm Hawker 

OK, interesting. So you’re not there, there’s. These are synonyms, product manager and product owner. 

Kyle Winterbottom 

Yeah. Yeah, pretty much, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Oh, OK. All right, I’ve got. I’ve got a gripe with the owner term. I I I I think it’s a carryover from governance and I’m not, I don’t know. 

Speaker 

To to to. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Me to me, an owner is is, is. Is a misnomer, misnomer. I like manager, I like custodian. I like caretaker but but but owner just seems. I don’t know. Yeah, I get hung up on semantics. It’s kind of it’s kind of my, my, my. So what? What is it? Otherwise that, that, that, that. You find attractive about the idea of I know what I do, but what do you find attractive about the idea of? Of kind of data as a product. 

Kyle Winterbottom 

So, well, I think you know, based on all the conversations that we have from the events that we were on the podcast that we host, et cetera, and obviously just. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Driven by data is, by the way, the driven by the data Podcast Fantastic podcast. 

Kyle Winterbottom 

Day-to-day from. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I recommend everybody, go listen to it, especially the one where I’m appearing. 

Kyle Winterbottom 

As I think you know that the conversations that we have around that the product element within data is is is starting to drive levels of adoption, right? And I think ultimately that’s. Really, one of the the big downfalls of data analytics teams historically, right? It’s, you know, they’ve built great solutions, the business for whatever reason won’t adopt, won’t use, won’t consume, et cetera. So I think it’s more just the the fact as you’ll know right treating it as a product, putting that rigor. Around it, you know the keep, maintain it, update it, add new features to it where where applicable, et cetera, et cetera. That whole product life cycle and mindset around data I think is the the big one. 

Malcolm Hawker 

So I love it the the product life cycle in particular, right, because I think I think getting back to my previous comment about data hoarding. If you were following kind of more. Product life cycle type. Approaches here you would have a sunset. You you would, you would have some sort of archival event where you’d say, OK, nobody wants this anymore. We don’t need it. And and let’s go archive this. Take it out of support, take it out of maintenance, whatever. Whatever that means. So that’s one good thing, but I I am a little concerned that what we’re hearing in this space. Right now around. Data as a product is is a lot. Of kind of check boxy lip service for lack of. A better, better description? I mean it just kind. Of sounds like like World Peace, right? Like yes, that sounds great. Everybody wants that. Everybody wants data as a product. What’s what’s wrong with that? I’m not entirely sure. Most data leaders know what that actually means, right. You’d mentioned one aspect. Kind of product life cycle. There are certainly. Others like marketing, positioning, branding, pricing, and I would argue that that should be a necessary component as well, right? Even like, even if all you’re doing is charging back to an intern. Middle like a, you know, a a profit center and you’re a cost center, whatever it is. But if you’re charging. Back and getting. Allocated budget but still some sort of idea of pricing, competitive intelligence market, broader market intelligence. There’s all of these things that go into product management that I. Think that we could use in the. Data space, but I don’t think most people know what that means. Being that I, I think that could be a challenge from a recruiting perspective. Where you may find yourself now sitting down and saying, OK, well, if you’re consulting to people on, do you really, really need these responsibilities or is this the right responsibility to assign to? A VP of Data analytics. I suspect you may be doing the exact same thing. Hopefully when when asking. OK, do you know what it really means to have a product manager here and and maybe you should be considering these other things, do you? Do you do you, do you agree? 

Kyle Winterbottom 

Yeah, absolutely. I think as with pretty much every thing in our industry, there’s always the risk that you know the the buzzword overpowers the the the actuality of what it’s there to to do, right, you know? So I think, yeah, there’s definitely a risk around that that businesses, you know, jump on that. Data products or data as a product bandwagon and we need data products and you know, everyone’s gonna be running around building said you know products in quotation marks. And yeah, I think there’s there’s always the risk there for. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yeah, I’m. I’m most concerned, especially for those that look at it through the lens of of. An owner that that, that, that. Would give some sort of kind of. I don’t know. Free rein over everything and and it data inherently is a is A is a team sport and a collaborative sport. As as is. Product management. So I don’t know, I think I think I maybe I get hung up on labels. Too much, but I do think they matter. 

Kyle Winterbottom 

Yeah, it’s. I mean it’s in, it might be worth noting, Malcolm, that I think the product owner title we’ve we’ve seen and and kind of found. Tends to to kind of be given to organisations that are operating with a hub and spoke model, right, you know, so it’s a data person that also understands the product element and can face towards the business and sits in the business domain to own data from their perspective and create products around that. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Kyle Winterbottom 

So I know that would be. Slightly different to your usual private manager that might run a suite of products, right? 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yeah, yeah, agreed. So getting back to the CEO role, let’s assume that I am a director of data and analytics or I’m a senior manager of data and analytics and and and I want to go down that that CDO path. Are there one or two or three things that you would tell that person to be focused on? What what would you? Tell them in. Terms of kind of career management and. For maintenance to to to to help accelerate them along that path. 

Kyle Winterbottom 

Well, I think the first thing that I normally tell. People when I. Have these conversations is don’t go chasing the title, right? So first and foremost, make a decision based on the role and responsibilities, because I think that probably plays a part into the. To the 10 year conversation as well, right. You know, I think many people have been. Hell bent on getting. To that pinnacle of that title and probably made decisions that in hindsight they wish they hadn’t made to have the title and you know, ended up 18 months later looking for a new role because they they can’t, they can’t bear another day. So I think that’s the first thing I normally tell people. I think the second thing. As me and you have discussed many times, the whole, the whole kind of component around value and and adding value and being able to pinpoint tangible commercial benefits out of the things that the activities that that you’re doing, I think it’s. Still, it still surprises me how many people and conversations I’m I’m kind of. Here, and I’m Privy to of people saying, you know, that’s it’s not possible to to do that. But ultimately, if you want to sit at the top table that is, then the job right, you know, despite what most organisations still advertise for is Python skills for for CDO’s. But I think that’s some point in time that will even itself out and most businesses will realise, OK, if we’re going to invest the type of of money that we need to invest. Into hiring this cdio, we need to know for absolute certainty that we’re going to get something out of the other side of of that. So I think it’s, you know, when you’re ready to get to that point, having demonstratable experience to be able to say, you know? In my last role or previous roles, here’s what here was the strategy that we created. Here’s how we went and executed it. Here’s what the commercial benefits were for the business off off the back of it, and I think you know that’s that’s probably the key thing that I think is coming down the line for sure. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Be able to show that you’ve moved the needle in past experiences. Yeah, OK. You, you, you. You peppered. In you threw a little bit. Of a curveball there, because you just peppered. In CDAO. Obviously CDL versus CDA OA data officer versus a data and analytics officer. I’ve only ever seen. That once is is, that is, that is that common? I I have to assume. That the drawing is the distinction is is the largest of the large companies, yeah. 

Kyle Winterbottom 

So what? I mean, what I would say with that is that is it common? Not that common, but it’s getting more common, I think in most instances CDO. Those are CDO’s, right? They just never had the title. So it’s just another it’s. I think it’s just another title thing, if I’m honest. You know, there are some large entities out there. Obviously that will distinguish between having a chief data officer and a Chief Analytics officer. And as you’d expect, political reasons, obviously. Create challenges around. Around that. But yeah, I think we we tend to see that more in the US for sure, the CDO type title. But I think, yeah, largely speaking, you know, the CDO is still the CDO, they’re just not put the AA in there. So you’re you’re good friend Scott Taylor actually pulled, pulled me up on this on LinkedIn today, so I had to. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Oh really? I’ve I’ve been. I’ve been. 

Kyle Winterbottom 

Yeah, I so I had. 

Speaker 

Haven’t seen that. 

Kyle Winterbottom 

To turn it with an American thing. 

Speaker 

Oh, OK all. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Right, well, interesting. Birds of a feather. Maybe it was the like three to four years of Scott and I spent together traveling the world. Who knows where. Maybe sharing portions of a brain? Now but I. Honestly, I I I slightly blame my previous employer, Gartner. On this one. I used to get into. I wouldn’t call them heated debates, but, but, you know, interesting exchanges around why? Why are we so obsessed around data and analytics data and analytics? Data and analytics. Why isn’t it just data? Why can’t we say that analytics is a kind of of? Is it discipline under a broader data organization? We can say that data management is is is a disc. Data governance, analytics on and on. Why do we have to say data and analytics and and honestly the answer to that question from a Gartner perspective was political. So, so, so, so how? It became the data and analytics organization because there were politics at play internally within that organization and that’s how that they surfaced their organization to the external world and they external world started to embrace it more and more and more becomes this. Kind of this self fulfilling prophecy. I saw this all the time. Gartner the more that we talked about things, the more that the market talked about things and it became. Separately, so you had mentioned previously the conversation kind of senior CEO 10 years and and yes, you know the the the data varies here. I’ve seen numbers around 18 months, 24 months, 28 months ish depending on the on on the survey which is. Relatively roughly half. The the tenure of of a seat I. So I think you know. Obviously it’s the CDO world is. Still young, it’s still maturing. It’s still evolving. But obviously that there’s there’s a bit of a red. Flag there. What do you think of some of the causes of that? I mean, you just gave you told the story earlier, basically a wash, rinse and repeat. You try to do something, you don’t show the value and then you move on and. You try to do it again. Obviously, you’re kind of telegraphing some, you know, a bit of your answer here already, but what do you think of some of the root causes of? 

Kyle Winterbottom 

Yes, I think I think. That’s that’s certainly at play for sure. It was interesting cause I’ve I’ve I spoke to Randy Bean on our podcast recently who started to tell tell me a bit about the research that obviously they they do and and from there from that CDO community it was you know 20 to 24 months was the average. Tenure but. Further research he was telling. Me basically got to the the nuts and bolts of it was to say that. Being able to put a tangible commercial figure. In the short term. Is more difficult than it is to do over a three to five year period and and then as such, you know that the conflict of that is that CDO 10 years never reached that point. So I don’t know that you know that was just something I I thought was fascinating, right, because most CDO’s are sitting there saying you can pinpoint. Commercial value, but actually to see anything that’s of the size and scale, that’s enough to kind of, you know, prick the ears up, so to speak. That might take you a little longer. But CDO’s aren’t getting that long to do that. So you know, I I’ve had many a conversation where I, you know, I I kind of use the analogy of, you know, sports management, right. You know, if you’re a a Premier League soccer team or you’re an NFL football coach, you know you’re in there. If you if you’re not getting results after a few a few weeks and you know the teams sliding down. Table your head’s on the chopping block pretty quickly, right? So this whole notion of quick wins is starting to fascinate me a little bit because we hear that a lot, right? You know, we’ve got a quick win show the value quickly, demonstrate value quickly, but seemingly that for whatever reason isn’t happening. So I think that’s a kind of key, probably a key component because then. You know, if you’re a CEO of a multinational business and you’re paying a very hefty. Salary and investing heavily into new technologies and building teams and so on and so forth. If you’re not quite travelling at the pace you thought you might be travelling at, you know, maybe it’s similar to sports team. Well, let’s let’s cut loose and see if we can find someone else who can take us. Yeah, the direction we wanna go in. So I think that’s. Only certainly kind of playing a big factor. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yeah, I think you would mentioning Randy being I think he may have been referencing a study that I. Think that he? Published recently in HBR and Harvard Business Review that he collaborated with Tom Davenport, I believe on off to off to look that. One up. But yeah, definitely. If you search, Randy being, I’m. Pretty sure it. Was it published in HBR? They his his. Consulting organization had done some research recently around CDO’s and their tenure that it was really, really insightful. What one of my theories here is is related to incentives and couldn’t agree more quick wins. You you’ve gotta you’ve gotta be focused on strategy, but too much strategy and not enough quick wins is is a problem and and all tactical all operational and no strategy is also a problem so obviously. There’s the there. There’s a balancing point there, but. I’m I’m fascinated by by. Opportunities potentially to change kind of. How CDO’s are are are in? Scented. Are you seeing when we were when I was at Gartner, you know, we we had done a a CDO survey last year and Gartner said that upwards of 25% of CDO’s now actually. Have P&L. Responsibility for kind of line of business results meaning P&L over a digital transformation initiative. And I have to assume that. That for those CDO’s that some of their incentives are. Being tied to. Business performance increased sales reduced, reduced costs on the. Business side or reduced risk? Are you seeing more kind of incentive models in the CDO world that that do align to kind of business high level business performance instead of just you know better data whatever that means? 

Kyle Winterbottom 

So I I think broadly speaking at the senior level, you know, most remuneration packages look like you know a proportion of base salary equity and a bonus of of some kind now depends you know it really varies organization to organization, firstly on how big of that portion is assigned. Two bonus. And the the kind of drivers behind that, you know, so is is it you know you do get instances where it’s exclusively business performance you know, so if the business outperforms what it was expected to revenue wise or P&L wise then you know you’re eligible for a bonus. You then get some split which is based on personal performance. Alongside that, which then, you know, you do start at that level, you do start getting into the realms of, well, what does success look like? I don’t think those conversations would harm us in any way at all, right? Because I think part of the, I think part of the challenge often is that. Most business leaders from my knowledge, they they know that there’s value in this thing somewhere. They know that, you know, if they hire the right person, they can get something out of the other side of of this that’s of benefit to their organization. And obviously, they’re not the people that know how to do that, hence why they go and hire a CDO, right. But I think in in many instances. The The There’s, there’s not any success metrics or KPIs around what? What does good look like for this CD or the what time scales? So you know that does bring that kind of question to the forefront a little bit when you have to start negotiating well, OK, if my bonus is based on part, you know, part of my. Remuneration is based on a a bonus around my personal performance. Well, what the success look like for me and and how are you gonna quantify that? And I think that. So not only drives the conversation from a, you know, setting up success, success metrics, but also you know drives the right behaviors from the CDO around well, I wanna make sure I hit that bonus. So I wanna make sure that I’m demonstrating these these key things right. But I think again, it’s a, it’s a balancing act because it’s normally the CDO. That needs to be the person that can tell the business leader how realistic that ambition is over what time frame, right, so. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yeah, I I’d be interested to see. A future world where kind of the the. The CDO KPI’s. Are are directly aligned to business KPI’s right at at at at at appropriate levels, right? So normal course of action for senior leader to be to be compensated based on company performance and and a certain amount of your bonus to be tied to company. Performance generally revenue, right? But at lower levels as you kind of cascade down the organization, I I would love to see a future state where CEO sign up for lower cost of goods sold or increased cross sell or or lead conversion rates or whatever. I mean, there’s thousands of. Business KPI’s, but where it’s actual KPI’s on the business side are fully. Aligned to KPI’s. On the CDO side, instead of just kind of some nebulous, you know company? Performance, which is. Almost always, if our revenue goes up, you get you. Get a bigger chunk of pie from a bonus. So I think I think there could be something there and that’s really what I kind of meant by incentives where what I’ve seen data analytics leaders is, is is kind. Of this ill defined just kind of better data or or or data quality metrics and not actual business metrics. 

Kyle Winterbottom 

Yeah, it’s a I think it. It fascinates me that kind of come that kind of line of conversation. Malcolm cause I think obviously and and I know that we’ve spoken about this many times right. But you get. Everyone knows you don’t speak to to any Joe Bloggs in the street that works in data and they will tell you start with the business strategy and objectives, work backwards, plan, plan what you plan your strategy around, helping the business to hit them, blah blah blah blah blah. Yeah, or 8-9 times out of 10 it probably doesn’t happen that way. Which fascinates me. I’ve I’m. I’m still trying. To pinpoint why. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yeah, exactly. And and honestly, Kyle, I think what it comes down to straight up is I will just loosely say leader. Because I I think it takes a very, very, very extraordinary leader to walk out on that limb right and say, yes, I I will tie my compensation to business KPI’s. And if I and if those business KPI’s are not delivered, then I won’t get my bonus and that takes a really unique. Leader because you don’t. As with all things data, you don’t have direct control over those outcomes, right? You relying on salespeople or you relying on procurement people, are you relying on other people in the business to do it so that that, that I think that would takes a an exceptional person to be able to to do that and and and to take those risk? But, but I’m optimistic that someday in the future that, that, that we are doing more of that and I think that’s I think that’s when you and I will connect and. LinkedIn and say. Aha, you know. Aha, we we finally maybe crack some sort of code here for why, you know. I think I think we can. We can, we can guess as to why data leaders don’t kind of follow the business strategy and don’t execute against business outcomes. But once three or four or five or 10 or 15 or 20 start to do it, I think. To start to. See more. And more of that. So anyway, that’s me being the optimist. We could keep talking for days and days and and and as we do online anyway. But it’s been so great to have you wonderful insights. I’m optimistic for 2023. I know it’s a tenuous. Time you’re you’re you’re nodding. So it’s it. It seems like you are. Thank you so much for spending some time with us today to discuss this.