Woo.

Yeah. Look at that.

I like that.

Yeah. Yeah. Fancy stuff. Well, hello, everybody. Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. Good. Whatever time it is wherever you are.

I am Malcolm.

I’m the host of the CDO Matters podcast, and we are both Samir and I are both impressed with our new recording platform, higher quality audio, higher It’s not ours.

It’s yours.

Yeah. It’s mine.

But you’re you’re here today, so it’s it is ours.

Today.

It’s ours today.

It’s ours today. Yeah. Yeah.

As as you can tell I’m good for that.

Yeah. Here’s cheers.

As you can tell, I am joined by my friend, mister Sameer Sharma, who is the CEO of DataZoom, a boutique consultancy focused on data strategy, data and analytics, all things data.

If you need a super smart consultant who is focused on business outcomes, look no farther than my friend, Sameer. We’re gonna talk today about all sorts of things, data and analytics. We have no set agenda. We did this a couple of, I don’t know, a few weeks ago on your podcast here.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A couple of years.

Which is, by the way, the data strategy show.

So check out the data strategy show if you have not already.

Sit I’ll just sit back and you just big me up.

Yeah.

I’m I’m happy with that.

And I by the way, disclaimer, I haven’t paid him for anything.

Yeah. Not yet. Not yet.

I bought you a pipe when when I’m in when I’m in Florida.

Brilliant. He did he he did the well, it wasn’t the last time we were together, but one of the first the first time we ever met, Sumer took me to a flower show.

Well, you were in London, and it was a Chelsea flower show.

And we met in Sloane Square, and that is just around the corner from the Chelsea flower show.

And I think It is deep.

Yes. It’s factually true to say that we went to a flower show.

Well, we went to we didn’t go to the flower show.

It’s factually true to say that we walked around and saw the flower, sculptures Yes.

Yes.

That were it was sprawled around the Kings Road area.

I’m still gonna say that we went to a flower show on our first date.

On our first date.

On our first mandate. Yes. Our our first mate date as as you were. Yes. So so Samir and I met on on LinkedIn as so many do these days online.

Absolutely. It’s an old line now, isn’t it? We met on LinkedIn.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and and we we share a lot of perspectives in common.

Obviously found a a a rapport and, no. The the the Sloan Square meeting was just, hey. Let’s let’s meet up for coffee.

I think I was there for I don’t know.

For work, I think. You were there for work.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I think it was the IRM conference last year maybe. I I don’t I all the news No.

No. No. It wasn’t. No. It wasn’t. You you you were in London Bridge for something.

Yeah. And you said, I’m gonna come over to to Sloan Square. And I said, great. I’ll meet you at whatever time.

And I think it was that. Anyway Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

So today’s episode is just about advertising similar services. His his his consulting services is is genius.

Let me get the three hundred and fifty page deck up so I can present.

Yeah. Yeah. Exact well, yes. Yes.

There will be a deck later about the importance of data strategy and operating model.

Absolutely. So get get get your pillows. Yeah.

So hello. Hello, everybody. Happy twenty twenty five. This will air, I think, probably the first week of February.

So it probably not Oh, okay.

Can’t say you can’t say happy twenty twenty five anymore.

I thought we were I thought we were actually live as in live live as in live on LinkedIn. Oh, I see.

So you’re We’re we’re recording. So, you know No.

I know we’re recording.

If we if either of us says anything really dumb, we could edit it out if we had to.

But, no. We’re not we’re not live. We are recorded.

K.

I’m just checking my my date. Oh, this will air on February sixth. So Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

Just a few days after Groundhog Day here in the United States, which one of our biggest Which is what?

Which is what day?

It’s usually February first, is it? Not February second.

Is it? Okay. Okay.

Is that first or second? I should know Groundhog Day. I was just being, glib saying it’s one of our more important holidays here in the US.

Obviously, it’s gonna establish that. I’ll I’ll I’ll never know.

But Groundhog Day however A movie.

Well, it was a movie. It was a it was a brilliant movie.

It’s a great movie. Yeah.

Yeah.

Arguably, Bill Murray one of Bill Murray’s best movies, I will argue.

Absolutely.

Absolutely. Just I just I love the comedy there. He was good at that. Next week, though, everybody, get ready.

Valentine’s Day, if this is your reminder for next week? Well, it will be the next week.

It’ll be the fourteenth. February fourteenth.

I will be off oh, yes. Airing the same.

The time capsule is You’re not yes.

We are. Yeah.

We’re in a time capsule.

We’re time time traveling right now.

I guess. Now that assumes that people could be listening to this in the year twenty thirty. Right? Because we we do these on we stick them on the YouTubes and the Internet webs and, who knows when people consume it.

But if they’re consuming it like most of my subscribers and listeners do when it first comes out, next week will be Valentine’s Day, so don’t forget. Valentine, keep keep your your your, your Valentine near and dear. You doing anything for Valentine’s? Is that, like, a thing in the UK?

Valentine’s is a thing in the UK. Of course.

Well, of course it is. It’s a Hallmark thing everywhere in the world, isn’t it? I mean, you know, it’s just, yes. I don’t know. I I actually, when this airs on the on the day of the sixth, I will actually be in the US.

Oh, really?

Where are you going?

I’ll be in Chicago.

What are you doing in Chicago, if I may ask?

Oh, I am working with a new client in Chicago.

Oh, that’s fantastic. One of my favorite cities. I really love Chicago except in the winter.

In the winter. I know it’s brutal. I did check the weather, and it yesterday, it was minus eighteen.

And I just thought Okay. Holy.

So that’s minus eighteen Celsius. So that’s that’s legit cold. That’s pretty cold.

Yeah. When I get there, I think it’s gonna be about minus seven, minus five or something like that. Still cold. Yeah. You’d be lucky.

Well, the biggest challenge, Chicago is not the fact that it could be subzero or subfreezing, is the wind.

So walking around, the wind comes off the lake, and it gets fuddled in between all of those buildings. And, oh, once once oh, you it could be chilly. But, yeah, minus eighteen. That Fahrenheit that’s zero in, in Fahrenheit. Minus eighteen is zero.

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Because I I’m constantly converting in my head because I as you know, I grew up in Canada. We were we were Yeah.

We were always metric. And then now that I’m in been in the US for so long, I’m I’m constantly converting. And it’s like, what’s that?

And and, you know And you had a big event there yesterday in in the US.

Yes. We did. Event there. Inaugurated the, the, the forty seven president president of the United States, John Donald j. Trump.

And the republic still stands. Everything’s still here.

It does. Everything’s on. It’s still working.

It’s it’s it’s still working.

You didn’t fall off the map yet?

Not not yet. Not yet. We’ll we’ll see. But we’re only right so far, this was, obviously, this is January twenty first.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yesterday was the was the inauguration.

So And he’s half halfway through his, early morning, I guess, or or sort of into into the afternoon already.

Well No. No. He’s not. No. No. No.

It’s just after ten years. So Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it’s about eleven ish there.

Yeah. So everything is just fine. Everything will be fine. The republic will stand.

Good. Yeah.

I’m looking for I’m looking forward to, this is a good segue. I’m looking forward to a big twenty twenty five.

I I’m a little less, you know, in my my annual predictions episode, which will have come out.

It comes out this week actually in a couple of days. Okay. I’m I’d love your perspective on this, Amir, particularly the European cement perspective. I I think it’s gonna be a better year in twenty twenty five.

I think I interest rates I certainly hope so.

Yeah. I think it’s gonna be a better year. What what do you think from the European perspective? Like, just kinda macroeconomically, where do you see things headed?

Well, look. I think twenty four was a just a a a dog of a year, to be honest, in Europe. Yeah. It it wasn’t it wasn’t the best.

And I I I’ve certainly seen a a slight upswing in things, but I think there’s still a lot of stuff that’s happening in the in the UK and Europe that that still needs to be resolved. You know, economic headwinds are not they have not disappeared, and they’re they’re they’re not the positive headwinds right now as as we were hoping. Although, we’ve had a little bit of a bump here in the UK.

I think that, look, the difference is, you know, from my perspective, when I look at and and I have a a number of US clients. So when I look at the US, I always find that in the US, everybody’s a little bit their their step is a little bit different than than the UK and Europe.

And and Europe and, you know, particularly, because I’ve I’ve I’ve had some European clients last year as well, where I I think they they they are they’re they’re they’re not willing to embrace the innovation or go full steam into something and really, you know, claim it and and and put their arms around it and say, we’re we’re actually gonna do this. There’s a lot of political natured, machinations that that go into decision making. I I and and maybe I’m wrong. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe decision making is, you know, from my perspective in the US is, to to me, is sometimes a little bit quicker.

People are more willing to do stuff, jump into it, test and, you know, learn. Whereas I think, you know, in in the UK and and more so in Europe, every they’re a bit reticent. They’re they’re sort of little bit, you know, standing behind the service line and thinking, do I serve you or not? Do I kinda get into it? You know, should I do a really hard first service or should I just take it easy and see where it goes? So it’s, you know, I’m hoping that twenty five will be a better year in the UK.

But, economically, we haven’t started brilliantly. Let’s just say that.

Yeah. Well, it’s interesting. What you just said completely explains the things that I’ve witnessed in my professional career.

And I’ve never really been able to to articulate why, which is what I’ve seen in the data and analytics space over the last twenty years is about a two to three year lag Yes.

From Europe and and the US. And I never really tried to understand why, but I think what you just said would fully explain why.

If there’s a greater sense of conservatism Yeah.

Right?

If there’s a greater sense maybe of a premium on collaboration versus or or consensus, Maybe that’s a better word to may maybe the better word.

Consensus piece, which I think is probably the the better word to use. Yeah. Yeah.

Right. If there’s more of a premium on consensus and getting alignment on direction than risk taking, perhaps.

If that is true, what you just said, that would explain, hey. We’ll let the folks over the pond take the hit, take the risk, maybe have a few things blow up, and we’ll learn from that.

Correct. Your inside of the globe. That would fully explain it and and completely rational, by the way. Interesting.

Yep. Yeah. Yeah. And, well, that’s my observation. That that’s the way that I’ve seen it develop over the years that I’ve been in business.

And, certainly, when I started off, it was very much a UK based you know, we had UK based clients. But as we started to grow, we’ve got more clients in the US. And Yep. You know, I see a complete difference in the the openness and the the accessibility to people and and more willing to to view, you know, as you you you said it, risk taking.

You know? Let let’s let’s see what what it might look like. Let’s try it. Let’s attempt it.

Whereas, you know, that there’s a sort of back not a backward approach, but, you know, it’s a sort of back step. You know, let’s step back and look at everything first before we kind of, you know, take that in, oh, you know, that’s the and maybe, I don’t know, maybe in very large global multi you know, global organizations, you know, even in the US, maybe there is a still a, a a very high nature of that that consensus driven decision making.

You know, but certainly with the organizations I I work with in the US, there there seems to be a little bit more of maybe urgency.

You know, urgency and and, a growth mentality and, a willingness to, a willingness for success, which is often needed, you know, in these kinds of initiatives. You know? And I’m not saying that in the UK and Europe, there isn’t. I I’m I’m I I think it sort of there’s always a question about it. There’s always something, you know, that that that that sits in the back of my head as, you know, Is it is it really being done for the for the impact and the growth and the the efficiencies, or is it really being done because you wanna look good? You know?

And, you know, so there’s that. Yeah. It’s it’s kind of you know? And look. Not to say that that hap doesn’t happen in the US.

Of course, it does. It happens everywhere. But I I I’ve just noticed a a very different take on it, and it’s it’s more I don’t wanna say it’s it’s more vanity, but there there is more of a a yeah.

You know, I’ve used that word now, so I should own it.

It’s more more more more vanity based than Right.

You know, probably rambling a bit here as well, but it’s kinda, you know, that that’s what I’ve seen.

Well, I think I just I mean, we’re we’re all human, so I think that that that plays. But to touch touch on a few of the things that you talked about, from the risk taking perspective, I I think, generally, if we’re gonna if we’re gonna generalize, generally, if we’re gonna generalize Mhmm.

I think that’s large to what you what you just said is is a little bit true from the perspective of companies in the US being a little more willing to be a little more kind of risk tolerant.

Yeah. In in the data world, I’ve certainly seen an evolution over the last few years where companies see the even extremely big companies, like, I’ll take a Microsoft, for example Mhmm. Is is seeing the benefit of taking more arguably federated approaches, right, where there’s more freedom at a business line or business level, or we could just say functional level to make decisions that’s being articulated into more flexible operating models more Sure. Yeah.

Like, we could seamlessly say federated operating models, federated approaches to governance.

Yep. Where those business even the for the bigger companies where they are giving a little more freedom because I think, you know, these extremely large companies, whether you’re a bank or whether you’re a health care provider or maybe you’re even in tech like a Microsoft, they see the, you know, the Teslas of the world and the Netflixes of the world and the Amazons of the world and are in the Ubers of the world and these digital natives that are moving faster. Right? That that are moving a lot Yeah.

Faster. And these big companies are saying, okay. How do we do that? And I think the response for a lot of them is to become a little more federated and a little more, you know, pushing a lot of capabilities and a lot of decision making and a lot of authority into more functional units.

Now the trade off for that in the world that I live in is arguably inefficiency.

Right. You you Is that Do do you Initially agree? Initially, there’ll be some initially so so I I I look so so what you’ve just said there is quite interesting for me because I think there is a level of, there’s there there is levels of regulation across the pond with you, which are probably not as stringent as they are in Europe.

Right? So where we ruminate on AI and, you know, and the EU AI act and how everything needs to be transparent and, absolutely, I agree there needs to be transparency.

Where whereas there is a huge amount of regulation here, even in different industries, you know, you you have to comply with many different levels of of of regulation. Not saying that the US doesn’t. But when I look at it, it seems like there’s it’s less strapped in terms of regulation for innovation, for trying it and doing it and seeing if it works, and less so. And I think you can see that when you look at startups fundamentally, you know, in in the US versus start the startup culture in in Europe.

Yes. Of course, we have start ups. But, you know, we’ve got Revolut, which is probably the biggest fintech now in Europe, and, you know, it’s it’s it’s becoming a worldwide, name. But that’s one.

You know? Can we say that Europe has got, you know, the big big startups or the big names that the US has produced?

And I think there’s a there’s a there’s a feeling that regulation weighs on the Europeans more than it does on on the Americans.

And certainly now with your new incoming president, that regulation is probably gonna be lifted, you know, even even it’s gonna be even lighter. So we’ll probably see more, you know, innovation quick, and also we’ll see more failures quick. Whereas in the in the in the UK and Europe, you know, we see very few of the innovative companies coming out of Europe, that are gonna strike that balance of, hey. You guys had three hundred new start ups and, you know, five of them are unicorns.

Well, we had, you know, fifty and well, not fifty, but we had five hundred and maybe one was a unicorn. Whatever this you know, it is. But, you know, it’s it’s we produce less, I think, in terms of the the impact on the globe. Maybe.

Right? This is this is what I’m seeing. You see it on LinkedIn as well. You see the comparisons.

So I think there is a a contentious view around regulation and whether we need to have more, which it seems like we’re gonna have more in Europe and you’re gonna have less in the in the US. Maybe that’s it’s an assumption. I don’t know.

I think that’s a safe assumption based on rhetoric.

Yeah.

But what you have in the US is is is interesting. This is certainly much less so in Canada.

But in the US, you have a lot of authority at a state level here where you do.

Yes.

If you take a state like California that is that has, you know, passed a lot of regulations over the last few years.

Companies Yeah.

Picking up moving.

Within the And and leaving. Yeah.

And they’re moving to Florida. They’re going to more what what arguably business friendly states.

A lot of a lot of a lot of companies have moved to, to Texas where I previously lived, and a lot of them are moving to Florida where I live now.

So that’s that’s certainly the case. But to the to the point about European regulation, you know, with without any sort of kind of political, whether that’s you agree or whether you disagree, I think I think what you’re saying is is just a cold hard reality. It is true. Mhmm.

There’s far more regulation there. If you want to do you you could argue, well, okay. Because of Brexit, you know, Britain could do what it wants. But if you wanna sell into the EU, right, if you wanna be able to sell anything in Ireland, right, or or anywhere in France, if you’re in Britain, you’ve gotta comply with those rules.

So it’s it’s Easy. Yeah. I I think it’s it’s a bit of a misnomer to say, okay. Well, Britain has a flexibility to do whatever it wants.

If you wanna be able to have access to those markets, you’ve gotta play by the EU rules. So I I think you’re right. I don’t see that changing.

But do you see just is is there any sort of and this does get a little bit into politics. Do you see any sort of winds kind of blowing the other way? Are people getting to the point where it’s like, hey. You know, we won’t be able to compete or or this is a competitive hindrance on us?

Do do you hear any of that over there from from, just kind of a a Vox Populi perspective? Wow. I just used that phrase out loud.

Yes. You did.

I have probably heard it more on on platforms like LinkedIn than I have Okay. Anywhere else. I think there is that sentiment. There is that feeling.

Unfortunately, I’m not in the political realm. Right. So I don’t really, you know, sit with those individuals who are, looking at at those those challenges, and and, you know, trying to think how do we start I mean, okay. You know, we’ve had Brexit.

We’ve we’ve we’ve broken away from the EU. We will have our own UK, you know, AI act. We’re gonna start, the the the the prime minister, unleashed his new a you know, AI, strategy last week, where we are gonna have a lot more of a view on, you know, how will AI help in the next ten, fifteen, twenty x amount of years. Right?

I I think that’s obviously a good thing. There’s gonna be more opportunities. There’s but we need a base. We need we need to have that structure implemented.

We need to have those policies, enacted, etcetera. Whereas I think with the EU AI act, if you are thinking about, you know, engaging and and working with the EU, it it it may well be constrained for us. So we have to have we we have to be able to look at the EU AI act and have some way of, working within that sort of context, but being able to accelerate our efforts around AI and not being constrained by Yeah. And I think that’s the reason why we came out.

Not that’s not one of the it’s it’s one of the reasons we came out. It’s not the the main reason, that, you know, I’m not gonna go there anyway.

It’s too too big a conversation for for this.

Oh, for sure.

But well, I think there’s an interesting there’s there’s something interesting there, Sameer, which is if if you if you assume that the regulations are just a a given.

Right? Whether whether from any perspective, whether it’s AI, whether it’s sustainability, ESG, you name it. If you just assume that they’re probably gonna be there, and and I just I I don’t see that changing anytime soon in in the EU.

Is there an opportunity in this I I fully expect the answer to be yes, by the way. This is a little bit of rhetorical question. So I won’t frame it in a question. I’ll I’ll just say, I think there could be interesting opportunities for data leaders to innovate around the regulation.

Right? I’ll I’ll give you an example.

Right? I’ll give you an example. So one of the things that I talked about in my twenty twenty five predictions is that what I said was the u the US is going to regulate less and Europe will probably regulate more. One of the examples that I gave is this thing called the digital product passport.

It’s an EU initiative that is designed around sustainability, but but where you are increasingly, gonna be required to have these QR codes and products to Right.

To to to that are designed for sustainability to show the materials that were used in in the sourcing of those products and to be able to track that product through its life cycle.

Okay. So it’s lineage where Exactly. From. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But but it’s product. It’s it yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Could you So so for example you could.

So you you’re you’re saying, for example, where you know, I I fished for that fish and it came from this sea, and it then came up on this fisherman’s plate, and then it went to that particular. So you get to see everything that happened along that chain of events, and you know from source to table exactly where it, you know, interesting enough, lots of people have tried to do this previously. But, again Mhmm. You know, there’s lots of, there’s lots of, integration challenges. There’s lots of, data challenges because, you know, again, are we are we apps are we absolutely sure that that’s where that particular fish came from, and is there the data to prove it? And I guess this then leads us to things like blockchain and so on. Can we create, you know, all of those systems in place to ensure that we’ve got that footprint?

Now we can. Right? I mean, it’s I I I think it was the just gonna try and remember their name. The Marine, Conversion Society or Marine I I saw it.

It’s the MCS anyway. They’re an organization here. Can’t remember their name. I know it’s MCS, but Marine something something.

They basically tried to implement this, I think, way back in twenty fifteen, sixteen. They were talking not not implemented. They were talking about it then. We want to have the ability to have standards and that we know where the where from source to table, from source to supermarket, or whatever it will be, we can put our label on this to say, this was fished in a in a, what’s the word? My brain’s gone blank.

Sustainable way.

Sustain sustainable way.

Yeah. Sustainable way.

We Yes. Exactly. Sorry. Sustainability is such a everybody uses that. Couldn’t remember it for a moment.

So, yes, they tried to do that. Now I’m sure they’ve got to a certain point, but can they clearly say that they’ve got the wrapper around it for data? Probably not. You know? Because I think there’s a lot of breaks in the in the chain. You know, that Right.

You may be talking about something you may be talking about something called TradeLens or maybe not. It was a partnership with Maersk, the shipping company Maersk and IBM, where they where they tried to Mhmm. Implement blockchain to track shipping containers. Literally just to be able to track shipping containers.

Yes. Yes.

Pardon me. And they tried for years to make it work.

Is this And they RFID and stuff like that?

Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I remember reading about it. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. It was RFID, but it was under underneath it all was a block a blockchain. I forget which it is. It doesn’t it doesn’t matter.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And they just sunset that initiative last year. They gave up on it because everything we’re just talking about, Sameer, requires network effects. It requires everybody to participate to a certain degree.

Yes. And at that level. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But when you regulate the participation as is happening with these digital product passports, well, then you then you have to. But I think there could still be something interesting there. I’ll give you an example.

You know, in in the in the US, and I don’t know if there’s a UK equivalent. Maybe there is.

In the US, the Whole Foods market, for example Mhmm.

Is is it charges a premium. Right? If you if you go there and an apple at Whole Foods will will cost a dollar and an apple somewhere else will cost sixty cents. But when you buy that Whole Foods apple or or or better example maybe is chicken, like the protein Mhmm. Where Whole Foods actually controls the the supply chain. Right?

Where Whole Foods is the one that’s providing the feed to the chicken farmer Right.

Because the the feed was ethically sourced and and is is non GMO and is all these thing.

And people are willing to pay the premium to know that their chicken was was was fair. Non GMO food.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So I I I see an opportunity for data leaders to maybe think about ways to to innovate around some of these regulations and maybe even use them as a lever for competitive differentiation because I think for some consumers, not for all, but I want to know if the person who picked this coffee bean lives a good life. Mhmm. Mhmm.

Like, maybe that’s a little lofty, and maybe maybe maybe that’s, you know Maybe that’s just human.

Naive. I don’t know. While you’re there sipping your latte, you know, overlooking the ocean.

I am I am sipping my coffee this morning, and I don’t know who picked it.

And and you don’t and you’ve paid you’ve paid over the odd you’ve paid over the odds for it as well. No doubt. No.

Well, I’m thinking I don’t know.

But no. It’s well, no. We we we try to be to be, you know, conscious about where our food comes and what what we’re putting.

Yeah. Yeah.

Anyway, we’re we’re we are We have I don’t think we’re going too far off the path.

We’re we’re not. But but I think it’s back to it’s just this digital product, you know, ID or whatever it’s being called. So and I don’t know about that. So that’s something interesting for me.

But it’s not it’s not anything new really, though, is it? Agreed. It’s it’s No. It it it is a way for tracking.

It’s a way for understanding, you know, lineage. It’s a way for us to to to, as you said, to to to be be aware of of how things are produced and how things are shipped and how things are consumed. So I I think that’s that’s essentially candidly this. Yes.

Of course, they can, benefit from it. They can use it. They you know, again, everybody gets around regulations at some point or not around it, but, you know, innovatively using it it to their advantage. Yes.

Of course. I think people will. There’s there’s no reason you know?

Everybody who gets frustrated about a a process or or or a a position they’re in will always try and find a different route, And I think that’s quite normal. So so, yes, to your point, I think people will find different routes. Yes. Regulation will be there.

You know, they will have to either play within it and sit within those bounds or try and find another way to do something which will help them either be more competitive or, you know, be more innovative and capture more customers or capture niche customers. However it might be, it I I, you know, I don’t have the answer, but I think people will always naturally try and get around, especially if they’ve got that entrepreneurial mind, you know, for them to to to to have that sort of different mindset, as opposed to, you know, just I I need breakthrough. I need difference. I need to please my customer.

I need to produce something new. Whereas I need to stay in the confines of what we need to do, and we can’t go out of those, you know, those guardrails. And simply, we you know, it won’t work. So I think there’s always gonna be those two kinds of mindsets.

And I guess that’s, you know, the nature of the beast, isn’t it?

Yeah. Well, my advice to data leaders is for a long time, you know, particularly if you are in the business of making or selling things, which we all are to some degree.

You know, the the premium, I would argue, has been kind of on the demand side and understanding some of the complexities on the demand side. What do our customers want? What are our customers look like? What does a customer household look like? And that’s great.

Mhmm.

And I think I think we’ve made a lot of progress there to kind of understanding influences of customer behavior, but I think that there’s a massive opportunity to be focused more on the supply side and understand where is this stuff coming from, where do we get our stuff from, and more of a focus on arguably what could what best be described as product master data management, but also materials where these things coming from, are they being sourced ethically? Are they being created using renewable energy sources? All of that kind of thing.

Not happening right now, and I think you’re right, Sameer. I think this year in the US, we’ll see kind of a pullback from that. But I do think Yeah. That you could do both. I think I think even yeah.

But but but hasn’t ESG been a big driver of that as well?

Hasn’t this whole undertone of ESG, which is probably people are pulling back on because they found it’s it’s some of it is not scalable or not doable because they don’t have the data. Isn’t that where we were heading with ESG?

I I I think it is, but I think for whatever pullback we’ve got, I think the perceived costs far outweigh the perceived benefits.

Right? And and this and this is true with any large scale environmental initiative. Right? Because what you’re doing arguably is for the future, your future self, and not for your current self.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. What you what you are doing is an investment in changing something now for a future benefit, which means we’re gonna make the planet better for our kids.

And that’s All all move to Mars.

Maybe. I’ve heard it’s awfully hot up there. The days are very long. The days are very long.

Put water in my mouth, and I thought I shouldn’t have done that then, shouldn’t I?

I don’t know. I don’t know, man. I don’t I don’t I don’t think I wanna live on Mars.

But, I don’t know.

But but You know?

But I was gonna say something.

You know? Anyway It’s a good news.

It’s it’s a good news.

It is. It is.

You know, I I think there there’s I forget there’s an economic theory there. There’s a name of that, which is, you know, like, there’s this kind of game theory playing out, which is, okay, if the benefits enter in the future. There there’s I actually did a a undergraduate thesis on this, related to gambling and and credit Oh, yeah. And the use and the use of credit.

And, you know, I can get something today, but but where it’s the inverse, where I get immediate benefits and the costs are pushed into the future Right. Which kind of drives what this idea of game theory and I can kind of gain Yeah. And I can but if you invert it where all the costs are today and the future benefits are in the future, that’s that’s that’s a hard pill to swallow. And I think that’s kind of the story of ESG.

However Right. My Yeah.

My point is is that if you can pull some of those benefits and make them real now, which is keeping customers happier or giving them insights into, you know, data related to the products they buy, maybe they would be willing to pay. Because I think some customers would.

Right. So so I think I think there’s a couple of things there. One is the cost of living has gone up hugely.

Oh, yeah. Right? Yeah.

For sure. Cost of products have gone up hugely. So now you’re gonna put something on top of that, which is gonna then put your margins, you know, the margins up more for those specific products. Are people gonna be happy with that, you know, given that they are being squeezed?

Yeah. That’s a good point.

That’s a good point. And and then our our organization’s willing to invest that amount of cash in order for, you know, them to keep the prices as they as they were. I don’t know. I mean, look.

I’m I’m just I’m just trying to think about where where you know, of course, we all want to know. Did was that thing ethically sourced? Did I did I get the did did I make sure that no one died in this situation? Did I make sure that no one you know, that that people got remunerated with the right amount of, you know, money that they should be?

And and they’re living a sustainable life, and they’re living a good life, as you said.

I I think we’ve we’ve come to the, you know, to the the crux of, you know, there’s lots of people who wanna be more individualistic than they they want to be more worldly. You know, that that’s where I feel that things are going back to. You know, people wanna look out for themselves rather than, you know, protect this thing that we’ve got around us.

And maybe maybe there is some of that, you know. It’s been a hard year. It’s been a tough few years since COVID, you know, and people are people have been in very, very bad situations.

Yeah. And I I think, you know, you you see more of the divide, you know, that that that sort of, you know, wealth wealth wealth divide the so, yeah, it’s all great. It’s all wonderful, but you’re gonna make that divide much bigger. And and back to your point, you know, are you gonna help society, or are you gonna make it worse?

It’s just, you know, it’s just the kind of things that you need you know, that I think about in in those situations of I’m I’m trying to I I hear you.

I’m I have a dream.

Yeah. Yeah.

I should be saying this on on on January twenty first.

Yesterday was MLK Day.

Martin Luther. Yeah. No.

Yeah. And I and and my goodness. I’m I’m not trying to draw any sort of analogs whatsoever. But I I do have this this this dream, and maybe it’s Pollyannaish.

Maybe it’s maybe it’s overly optimistic where from a data management governance perspective, we are actually able to go beyond the minimum required to keep the the regulators happy. Yeah. And Yeah. The way to do the way to do that is through exposing value.

I mean, that’s just it. Right?

And Well, we agree on that always.

Yeah. Yeah. We we we absolutely do. And if we can’t show the value, well, then whether it’s an ESG initiative, which I think that’s kind of fallen prey.

Right? Because there you you don’t see the immediate value. Right? The the the benefits are are going to be delayed.

So it’s awfully hard to your point.

Yeah. I mean, if you’ve been And it’s very expensive.

Yes. Yeah. And and and I and I get it. Right? And Mhmm. There’s a lot of interesting kind of, you know, global geopolitical things at play here in terms of where we are in the west versus everybody else in the more developing nations and and the the right I don’t I don’t wanna go into that. Yeah.

No. No. No. Let’s let’s not do that. Yeah.

Yeah. But this the to me, the story here is is is can you show value somehow, some way in anything related to your what you’re doing in data management and data governance? Yeah. And, ultimately, that’s it. Whether it’s ESG, whether it’s your governance program, whether it’s paying for data steward, whether it’s anything, you’ve got to be able to show the value. And I think that’s what we’ll see more of in twenty twenty five, particularly in the US, which which is if it can’t justify itself, right, if there’s no business case here for this government program, for this government department, if if you can’t justify it, well, then you you you could be on the chopping block.

Yep.

Whether that goes from the government space and gets kind of filters down into the corporate space, arguably, it should have always been there from the corporate perspective.

It should have. Yeah. But look look. I I I agree with you, and I think it’s not to say that government is there and spending yes.

That that they spend a lot. But whenever I’ve worked in or with government, they have also been squeezed. There’s all there’s the the the the business cases that, you know, I’ve had to put together with my colleagues in in those situations have been very specific. It cannot just be we’re gonna go out and, you know, do this initiative, and it’s not gonna have any payback.

Maybe many, many moons ago before I was, you know, born, but in my in in in the days that I’ve worked, and that was what. You know, I worked in government from two thousand and five.

I’ll be it. They were my clients, but I was working with them. And then actually in government so from two thousand and five until about two thousand and nine, no, ten. So the the two years I spent in government, in the Caribbean, which, you know, again, you are having to prove what your what the policies are, what the spend is, you know, how much it’s gonna give back to the citizens, etcetera.

So it’s not to say that you don’t have that, and it’s not real it it’s it’s actually some in some ways, I sometimes think that it’s even more robust. There’s even more pressure to get it, you know, into a really good business case that has you tick the boxes for all those things, and you make sure that you can justify it. Whereas in the corporate, I’ve see I’ve not seen that as much, especially in data initiatives. I’ve seen that kinda like, you know, oh, we’re gonna spin up some data platform.

Well, okay. We need a we need a business case behind this. You know, we need we need to know what payback we’re gonna get. We need to know what we’re gonna build from it. We need to know how that’s gonna affect our, you know, is it gonna affect our revenue, or is it gonna be an efficiency program or whatever it might be. But, you know, how is it gonna help our customers? I see very little of that.

That’s interesting.

Whereas you and I know that that that’s the first thing that we would be doing, you know, to justify it. But maybe it’s the fact that I have both come from, you know, that background, which is quite intense. And and government isn’t just, hey. Let’s spend everything and make sure, you know, we we don’t have any money at the end of the day.

No. You gotta account for your your numbers. So yes. And I’m you know, the the on the on the other side, what with my experience, you know, certainly when I go into clients now, the first conversation I have is the value conversation.

And it’s not about we’re gonna go out and build, you know, data products ad nauseam. It’s about, well, you know, if you’ve got all of these use cases, we need to attach a number to it. We need to attach an ROI. We need to attach, you know, your internal rate of return or or whatever it might be.

But we need to justify that. And, actually, a lot of the time, it’s working with the finance teams who will have models, but they may not have, you know, the models that we use so that we we we kind of blend it with them, and then we help them to prepare for that. And I think that’s something that’s changing maybe because, you know, it’s it’s not always it hasn’t always been there. You you’ll find that a lot a lot of the the times that certainly, that that I’ve observed, there are data teams that don’t speak to finance.

They don’t even, you know, understand what’s required or, you know, who the person they should be liaising with. It’s one of the first things that I do if I was a, you know, when I was a data leader to go in and say, right. Who’s my finance contact? Who do I need to go speak to?

Who do I need to sit with to model stuff out? And maybe that’s also from the consulting background, you know, working for the big six.

You often are you know, especially when you’re you’re you’re bidding for large projects. The first thing is somebody says, have you spoken to finance about that? You’re like, oh, do I need to do that? But so it’s it’s kinda just one of those things that that that I think should be in the DNA of every single data team is to go find their finance counterparts, go work out that value piece, get the buy in, and then present that to the board, which is the way that you will get buy in because the CFO said, hey.

Yes. They’ve worked with my team. Yes. They built the right models. We actually have invested in this time, and we agree with it.

You know? It’s not always gonna be that way, but you know? So, anyway, yeah, I’ve just rambled a bit.

Better advice has never been given on the CDO Matters podcast. Find your financial counterpart off often in a group called FBNA, finance planning and analysis, but not exclusively. Go find the person who is managing the budgets at a higher level. Right? GL level stuff. Find that person and have lunch with them at least once a month.

Understand what their model what models are used. Right? Is this a discounted cash flow model? Is this is is this Yes. TCO model, ROI model? There’s a lot of different understand how they calculate value, understand how they they view value.

That is fantastic, unbelievable advice. Alright.

Fundamental. Fundamental. Just sit with them and ask them, how do they how do they construct a a business case? What is the way that we do that?

That is the fundamental aspect of what you should be doing. Sit down and just get into it. You know, forget the calculations. Forget those net PV or MPV or whatever it is because those will come.

But I think it’s really understanding what goes into it and how is it then looked at. How is it reviewed? How is it authorized? You know, how do you need to present it?

Those are really skillful things that people should have. Okay. I’ll shut up now.

No. No. No. You’re you’re bang on because and one thing you said in there is is is completely accurate, which is, let’s assume that you actually go through this process and you have a business case, and you build some sort of model to to to understand what the return of this investment is gonna be if that is in case the measure.

And you put that in front of a CIO or you put that in front of a CEO. The first thing that that person, what she or he will do is look at the person in finance and say, have you seen this? Yes. Right?

Have you seen this, or were you involved in this?

And if the answer is yes Yeah.

It’s it’s done. Right? It’s it’s it’s done.

The CEO’s not be watching your back. Yeah. Yeah.

Right. CEO’s not gonna challenge a spreadsheet that was put together by somebody in FP and A. Right? Because they’re the people that they rely on to do that stuff.

Alright. I do wanna be mindful of time. I know you’ve got a hard stop, but with a few minutes with a few minutes, it wouldn’t be a data podcast without talking about AI. Oh.

We gotta talk we gotta we gotta check the AI.

What is that?

So I’ll say something slightly slightly potentially provocative. Hopefully, marginally provocative, and and would love to get your perspective. What are the things that I expect this year? And this is a little bit weird. And and and I could be completely wrong with this, by way, of course, because I don’t have any magic forward looking goggles.

I actually think we’re gonna hear less hype this year in the data space, meaning LinkedIn, conferences, white papers, blogs, just vendors, even, arguably, consultants as well. I think data leaders and and CDOs are gonna hear a little less about AI this year because I I I think that we may be floundering a little bit.

You reckon?

When it would Okay. Yes. I think we’re floundering a little bit.

Oh, sorry. Yes. You mean yeah. I mean, you reckon as in you think there’ll be less rhetoric around AI.

That’s what I’m saying. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think about that? I’m surprised.

I think there’ll be even more. Okay. I think there’ll be look. I don’t think it’s gonna stop.

This this train is not gonna stop. Yes. I think what you’re talking about is the fact that there’s the realization that, from a data perspective, people are gonna have to pick up their game a little bit, and there’s gonna have to be more of those value based conversations, and there’s gonna have to be more of a view on listen. You’ve been in, you know, in role for x y zed.

Why isn’t our data ready for for for for the AI, you know, to to to be, consumed and to to build our models and, you know, to to have the impact that we need given that, yes. Okay.

Structured data versus, you know, unstructured data and what LLMs use and so on and so forth. There’s all those conversations, but I think we’re gonna have more. Look, agentic eye AI is is on the map this year. Right?

Everybody’s talking about it. Causal AI is now gonna come into play. Analytical AI is, you know, what we used to do, you know, now is being rebranded. So, yeah, I I somehow think we’re still gonna be speaking about AI.

Yes. I think what will happen is the data conversation will come up a little bit further. And I think to come back to what you said way earlier, which is it will be focused on a, a a governance piece from a data and an AI perspective, but it needs to be linked with the ethics, the values, and the you know, when I say values, I mean the values of, you know, the the company, the the DNA of the company, and, of course, the value piece that we’ve talked about. But so I think those those that thing will you know, the the governance piece will drive a little bit more conversations.

But it can’t be we’re gonna be doing a governance program for the next two years, and we’re just gonna be doing it in isolation. It can’t be done that way. It can’t be. It’s got to be a a a a a a a use case driven view of how we absolutely drive out the the the basis of where we’re gonna put our models, how we’re gonna be transparent with them, what’s the ethical use, how is it gonna impact people, you know, are we doing right by society, and so on and so forth.

And then on the other side, is our data good? Do we know where it came from? Has it got any bias in it, you know, x y x y zed. So those are the things which I think will come to the fore, but I reckon we’ll still be talking about AI ad nauseam as ever because no one’s gonna shut up about that.

Yeah. Fair enough. I could be completely wrong. And maybe I’m taking a little bit of a a glass half full or glass half empty perspective instead of a glass half full perspective.

And So why did why do you think why do you think that we’re gonna stop talking?

Because I think I’m I’m interested. I’m interested.

I I think that, metaphorically speaking, customers came to the data store Mhmm.

Looking for AI. Right? And I’m and I’m in the store, and I’m walking around I’m walking around the data store. I’m looking for for AI, and I there’s nothing on the shelf. And then when I when I I I talked to the storekeeper, the storekeeper says, sorry. Not in stock yet.

Right? And I think those customers said, oh, okay. That’s unfortunate. And then they went and bought it themselves or built it themselves.

Right.

They went and subscribed to ChatGPT through their individual credit cards and expensing a ChatGPT subscription monthly through through their through their credit card and expensing it back. And people in HR are doing it. People in marketing are doing it. People in engineering are most certainly doing it.

People in procurement are are doing it. People are going they went and got their own solution.

Right.

And I think and I think that those people have stopped going to the AI store. They’ve even stopped asking the shopkeeper when will he when the AI products be in stock, and they’re just going and figuring it all out on their own.

Mhmm.

Maybe that will change, and I hope it will change because what that storekeeper storekeeper by the way, this is you, people. This is CDOs, data leaders. What you should be doing is sitting down with those people who are subscribing to chat GPT.

Right? And ask them, how are you using this? What are you doing? What value are you getting?

Help me understand the productivity increases. Where is it good? Where is it bad? Yep. And finding ways to plug yourself into those, what we could otherwise call shadow IT deployments of Gen AI.

Yep. Yep.

Because they’re not happening in the shadows. They’re happening in broad daylight.

I I agree with that. And I think there was a very recent study, which I’m just gonna pull up because, I’ve got a, I’ve got a, I’m actually talking about this in a, it it just after this, I’m doing a a prep for a webinar.

Sounds good.

Killing two people. I I I believe that we still have this issue that isn’t hasn’t been talked about enough or certainly should be talked about, which is that, most of I think it’s Gartner said sixty one percent of organizations have assigned AI accountability.

Oh, did I did did you lose me?

No. I we’re I we’re still here. Yes. We’re here. We’re here. Hello? I’m here. Okay.

Here.

Did did you did you hear that?

Sixty one percent. That’s sixty so we were talking about. Yeah. So so, you know, sixty one percent of of organizations will put AI’s accountability on the c CIO.

So so, you know, what does that mean? We haven’t talked about what that means for the CDO, for for the the the those data leaders, for the CDO as for the you know, what’s gonna or or less functional, and how does how does the leadership then view the CDO? And is the CIO, you know, gonna be the one that’s gonna be leading on this?

Maybe.

Maybe. And the CDO is just gonna to be a data governance program.

Well Perhaps.

Well, it looks like What is it? Good good question. But our our tech is failing us, ironically, at at at the end of our discussion.

It But I do need to let you go because I know It is.

It is, which is bizarre because I’m I’m looking at it thinking, how can it yes. Yes.

I need to let you go because you’ve you’ve you’ve you’ve got a hard stop. This this conversation is ending on a little bit of a a I do. Of a of a of a low note because of our challenges related to tech. But thank you so much, Sameer. Challenges.

Indeed.

If you have not checked out the data strategy show, you need to check out the data strategy show.

If you’re looking for a data consultant, you will do no better than my friend, Sameer Sharma. Thank you for your time.

Thank you.

Thank you. Safe travels to Chicago, and we will be in touch soon. Thank you, everybody, for tuning in with another episode of CDO Matters. Check out another episode in another two weeks. Thanks, everybody.

See you soon.

Bye bye.