Malcolm Hawker 

Hi, I’m Malcolm Hawker and this is the CDO Matters podcast. The show where I dig deep into the strategic insights, best practices and practical recommendations that modern data leaders need to help their organizations become truly data-driven. TuneIn for thought provoking discussions with data. IT and business leaders to learn about the CDO matters that are top of mind for today’s chief data officers. 

Samir Sharma 

Welcome to the data strategy show 66 questions data leaders unplugged. I’m your host, Samir Sharma and I’m delighted to have Malcolm Hawker on the show today as my. What I really loved about our conversation and the initial opening gambit was about Malcolm walking on the beach. First thing in the morning and I think right there was my connection with him. What a wonderful conversation. And I loved the fact that his biggest learning experience was failure. Half the Battle of life, half the battle in life is showing up, and that’s been his mantra for years. Malcolm is currently head of data strategy for Profisee. And his mission is to raise awareness of the value of MDM and data governance among senior data leaders at companies across the globe. He has a passion for many things, the environment, sustainability and blockchain for data. He profoundly states he could chew your ear off, waxing about blockchain all day. But one thing don’t get him started on data literacy. I hope you enjoy this episode. Please do like share and comment and enjoy listening to Malcolm as always behind every data leader there is a person and here is Malcolm unplug. Malcolm Hawker, welcome to the data strategy show 66 questions. Data leaders unplugged. How are you Malcolm? 

Malcolm Hawker 

I’m doing well, Samir, thank you so much for having me. 

Samir Sharma 

Right. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I’m excited to be here. 

Samir Sharma 

That’s cool. Well, I’m looking forward to it as, as we were talking previously, 66 questions, rapid fire. So let’s start. Let’s just go straight into it. Malcolm, what’s your wake? 

Malcolm Hawker 

My wake up ritual is to be up around 6:00 AM. My wife and I go for about an hour, hour and a half long walk on the beach, come back, shower. I’m at my desk. 

Malcolm Hawker 

15830 depending on the day and at it at work. 

Samir Sharma 

Wow, I love that walk on the beach. I wish I could do that. Mine is a walk in the park, but you know, still. But the beach in the ocean is a wonderful thing. What would you say is your biggest strength? 

Malcolm Hawker 

Problem solving. 

Samir Sharma 

What’s the biggest learning experience you’ve had? 

Malcolm Hawker 

Failure multiple times multiple. 

Samir Sharma 

Give me an example of 1. Of those, just just to yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

My my first attempt at an implementation of an MDM solution. Massive failure. 

Samir Sharma 

Right. Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Massive failure. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Did all the wrong things major learning experience. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah, massive learning through that. Are there any hobbies that you will never give up? 

Malcolm Hawker 

I picked up photography recently. I love it. 

Samir Sharma 

Ah, beautiful. What do you do? Do you? Do people OK? 

Malcolm Hawker 

Landscapes I I consciously avoid. Taking pictures of people and buildings. 

Samir Sharma 

OK, OK. 

Malcolm Hawker 

This nature, yeah. 

Samir Sharma 

Just nature. Perfect. What makes you angry? 

Speaker 4 

That sounds like a lot. That’s the laugh. 

Malcolm Hawker 

People who you rely on who lack integrity. 

Samir Sharma 

Right, perfect. Do you have a first memory of life? 

Malcolm Hawker 

I do. 

Speaker 3 

Uh huh. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I do. Could be a lucid dream. Could be crap. 

Speaker 5 

Yeah. Uh huh. 

Malcolm Hawker 

But I I I swear. I I have a memory being born. 

Samir Sharma 

No way, yes. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I have. I have, I swear I have. A memory of of darkness becoming light. 

Samir Sharma 

That is crazy. 

Malcolm Hawker 

At the moment of birth. 

Samir Sharma 

Oh my goodness. Wow. 

Malcolm Hawker 

It could. I just could have made that up. I mean, we we create histories all the. Time we create. 

Speaker 4 

Yes, yes, they are. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Memories all the time, but I’ve got one. 

Speaker 4 

Absolutely we do. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I don’t know where it came from, but I got it. 

Samir Sharma 

Ohh interesting. What are you most excited about these days? 

Malcolm Hawker 

I’m really, really excited to live where I live and to live by the beach. I’m excited. About the future of data. Management, I know that sounds clear and I know. That sounds like. A A planted stock answer for this kind of thing, but I really really really really AM. There’s so much interesting stuff coming out. 

Samir Sharma 

Yep, very true. What’s the best compliment you’ve ever received? 

Malcolm Hawker 

I I am touched when people say that I work hard. I don’t know why. 

Speaker 4 

OK, OK. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I just I I like that. Yeah, cause cause I think I do. But you know. I I I don’t know. I like that. I like that compliment. 

Speaker 4 

1. That’s good. 

Malcolm Hawker 

And yeah, yeah. 

Speaker 4 

Now go and. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I mean, hopefully you’re delivering value, hopefully you’re you’re. You’re weaving the needle. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

But but to me, half the battle is just. Showing up right. 

Samir Sharma 

Yes, just just, just just. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Being there, doing it, putting your hands on stuff, starting right and and and to me, that’s half the battle and I. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Appreciate people notice. 

Samir Sharma 

What’s a cause that is important to you? 

Malcolm Hawker 

There’s, there’s a lot. Increasingly, increasingly, the quality and sustainability of our environment, and I never would have thought that that was the case until I moved to the beach and got to see on a daily basis man’s footprint on the planet and. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah. 

Speaker 3 

Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

At times it can be really sad and at times it can be really invigorating. I’m, you know, I’m not one of these people that’s going to finger wave and you know, ship on man and and and and man are dirty polluting beasts. I live a modern life and I love it, but at the same time I think we can all do a little bit better to take it easy on the planet. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, I think so. And I I guess you know you being so close to a a, a place where you wanted to. Move to and you know. Ideally I guess live and sort of retire and and enjoy that you want to preserve it. Right. You want to to make sure that it’s it’s there when you when you’re done with work and you just want to enjoy it, you know? 

Malcolm Hawker 

Right, exactly. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, all day, every day. And you’re lucky with the. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Is that correct? 

Samir Sharma 

Weather as well so. What makes you smile the most? 

Malcolm Hawker 

Ryy humor. 

Samir Sharma 

Ah, OK. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Particularly what what would be called maybe dark humor? I love I. 

Samir Sharma 

Oh yes. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Love British humor. 

Samir Sharma 

Yep, Yep. 

Malcolm Hawker 

So I’m I’m Canadian and was raised on a healthy, healthy doses of B and faulty tower and stuff and and and. 

Samir Sharma 

Ohh brilliant. Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Dark Canadian humor. I like humor. That makes you think. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

That you have to pause for a little bit. And you’re like ohh. OK, that’s that. That that’s a social critique. That’s a critique of an individual person. It’s self effacing which almost all British humor is as well. Then it makes you think about yourself and and and what was said is how does, how do you relate to that and how do you participate in that and and how are you that ridiculous? 

Samir Sharma 

Oh yeah. Of course. Yes, and not to take yourself too seriously either. 

Malcolm Hawker 

That’s that. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, wonderful. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Love it. Love it. Love it. 

Samir Sharma 

Do you have a secret talent? Something that no one, no one knows. 

Malcolm Hawker 

A secret talent. I I I I I I’m not sure it’s secret. I think I’m pretty good at photography. 

Samir Sharma 

Malcolm Hawker 

I’ve I’ve been. I’ve been, I’ve been, I’ve been learning it and and there there is, there is just no, no, just just by just by doing and and by watching him participating and and and. 

Samir Sharma 

You have work properly in a course or. OK, just plugged in. Yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

You know, people can say you just press a button and that’s absolutely and and and and and sometimes you can capture just amazing things by just pressing a button and having no clue. 

Speaker 5 

Well, yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

What you’re doing? But true photography is is an art form. I believe it is an art form, and doing it well, there is a way. To do it well. And I I’m not sure that that’s necessarily secret. 

Speaker 4 

Right. 

Malcolm Hawker 

But I actually think I’m I’m getting. 

Samir Sharma 

Good. Yeah, I think it’s one of those things. My father, obviously, it wasn’t his career, but he was a self-taught photographer. He could just take amazing pictures, but it wasn’t just the clicking factor. 

Malcolm Hawker 

What’s yours? 

Samir Sharma 

As you said. You know it’s framing, it’s getting the right point of view. 

Speaker 4 

Right. 

Samir Sharma 

It’s, you know, even when he was doing. I mean, funny enough, a lot of my family would say come. 

Speaker 4 

On take the pictures. No, no, no. I need to get apps. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, so I know, I know that thought process you go through, which is really interesting. What are the three things you can’t live without? 

Malcolm Hawker 

What are the three things that I could? Not live without oh. My gosh, of course this is metaphoric. 

Speaker 4 

Malcolm Hawker 

Right. I mean, you know, there’s there’s literally can’t live without. And then there’s metaphor without I I adore my wife. 

Samir Sharma 

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. OK. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I I have a wonderful, supportive, amazing partnership and I I I I adore her and I cannot imagine. 

Samir Sharma 

That’s great. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Without her, that’s that’s that’s. 

Speaker 3 

MHM, MHM. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Something I could not live without a purpose. My purpose and it has been for 30 years and I suspect it will. Continue to be. Is to help companies solve really difficult problems. 

Speaker 3 

MHM, MHM. 

Malcolm Hawker 

And I think I could do that in multiple contexts if I wanted to. I had to. I could. I could probably point myself into into helping people solve other complex problems. Maybe being in academia, I think there are things where I could point my, but I am in the corporate world and I really, really enjoy companies help solve very, very, very, very difficult things. And that is my purpose. That is my calling. That is what I’m what I’m here. To do I. Got out about. 1520. Years ago. Ish. 

Samir Sharma 

That’s great that you’ve got that. Lots of people don’t. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s it’s my reason, right? 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Like I, I I want to help, like, solve difficult problems, particularly problems that people run away from. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah, I agree. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Maybe this is my secret, maybe this is. My secret sauce. This is like my my my. 

Speaker 4 

Your secret talent. OK, OK. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Secret is like I. Will run to the burning building. And I will run towards the burning building. The more people that are running from it. The more that I view that as a challenge and. And the more that I would, I, I’d love to do. I don’t think I could live with other things in life, right? And and and and and this is a very first worldly thing to say, and maybe arguably slightly elitist, but you know. I I like. For lack of a better word, I I hate to use the. Word hedonism cause it has a negative connectivity but but I I like. 

Speaker 3 

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Good smells, right? 

Samir Sharma 

Right. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I I like the taste of good food. I like when my eyes are excited by a beautiful sunrise or a beautiful sunset. I like the taste of an unbelievably good Belgian beer. I I I the things that excite my senses. 

Samir Sharma 

Yep, Yep. Yeah, well, you know. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Are are, are. I’m I’m moved by right and that and and and I could hear things and maybe it’s not maybe it’s just the. 

Speaker 3 

Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Nuances and subtleties. Beauty we could. 

Speaker 3 

MMMMMM. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Call it it in in in in lots of different ways. Beauty in in in the in the pattern of clouds. 

Samir Sharma 

Perspectives. Yep, Yep. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Beauty in the pattern of of a bunch of ants, these things fascinate me and and it’s finding the complexity and finding the beauty and finding the wonder that is. 

Speaker 3 

MHM, MHM. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Everywhere around us, at all moments, whether those are visual, whether it’s it’s, it’s aromatic, it doesn’t. It’s it’s sensual. Stimulate those things. I couldn’t imagine not feeling. 

Samir Sharma 

Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, those are extraordinary things that we we are able to do as human beings, you know, and and see and. 

Malcolm Hawker 

It’s life, yeah. 

Samir Sharma 

And yeah, exactly. So what fictional character would you be? 

Malcolm Hawker 

Fictional character would be. Oh handsome. 

Speaker 4 

Oh, that’s OK. Yes, OK, that’s cool. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Maybe, maybe, I’d. I’d kind of. Be a bit. Of a Han Solo, right? I I. Would I would be maybe a little. 

Samir Sharma 

Running to the burning building. 

Speaker 

That’s and a little. 

Samir Sharma 

Bit of Han Solo mostly ran away. Didn’t he at the beginning? 

Speaker 

But but but. 

Malcolm Hawker 

But but he was redeemed. 

Speaker 5 

He was was. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Right and. He and he, and there was always. 

Samir Sharma 

Because there was a. Woman in the frame, that’s why. 

Speaker 

But but also. 

Malcolm Hawker 

But but you knew. Deep down that he was a. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, he was a good guy. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Good guy. And you knew deep down that that he may have been shady and he may have been writing some illicit businesses and running illicit not. 

Samir Sharma 

I’m yeah. 

Speaker 5 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

But the stand up guy, the guy that you could trust on the guy? The guy that. Shows up when you need him to. Be there the guy is there. And reliable and but but but a character, right? 

Samir Sharma 

Oh, absolutely. Genuine character, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

We’re we’re we’re. Hansel, I’ll go ahead. 

Samir Sharma 

What’s the last show? That you binge watched? 

Malcolm Hawker 

Ohh gosh, the last show I binge watched. Probably House of Cards. 

Samir Sharma 

Malcolm Hawker 

That’s a while. That’s a while ago. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, that is a while ago. Yeah, but. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Probably House of Cards. I mean I I I found that fascinating. I I I’ve never been. I had never been watched anything before and I haven’t been watched anything since. 

Samir Sharma 

OK, OK. So that was the only thing that. Really, sort of. Kept you captivated. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Well, getting back to. The previous comment about this kind of life and wonder and the beauty of nature and the beauty of things around us. 

Speaker 3 

MHM, MHM. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I I grew up in Western Canada where it’s like. Minus 28 months of the year, right where we’re. We’re like the story that I tell is where I grew, where I grew up about my first 25 years I can. I can recall significant snowfall in every month except one July. 

Speaker 5 

Right. 

Speaker 4 

No way, no way. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I can tell you a story of significant snow in June. 

Speaker 4 

Ohh my goodness. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Significance of snow in September. 

Speaker 5 

In June. 

Malcolm Hawker 

And now I’m ohh absolutely ohh absolutely. 

Speaker 5 

Ohh my goodness, that’s crazy. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Ohh yeah. Yeah yeah. Ohh I can. I can remember vividly with with my entire family running around my my yard with rooms trying to knock snow off of the trees cause all the trees had the leaves and branches were were were breaking off because it was the middle of summer and there was. 

Speaker 5 

Yeah, yeah. 

Samir Sharma 

Oh my goodness. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Anyway, that all this to be said? Now I live in a place where. It’s summer, all the time. 

Samir Sharma 

Yes, yes you do. 

Malcolm Hawker 

And the idea of spending 5678 hours inside watching television when I. 

Speaker 3 

Ah yeah, I was. 

Samir Sharma 

I agree. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Could be out. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, be outside. Yep. Agreed. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Doing those things that I talked about earlier, that’s what I’m going to do. 

Speaker 3 

Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

That’s what I’m doing. That’s where I am. 

Samir Sharma 

I’ll tell you. I’ll tell you the secret about me. We it for the last 20 years, I’ve not had a TV. And people think I’m a bit loopy. But anyway, this is not. 

Malcolm Hawker 

No, no, I I don’t have. 

Samir Sharma 

About me. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I don’t have cable television. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah, yeah, the Internet. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I I just have the Internet. I just have the. 

Samir Sharma 

Which is. The easiest thing what’s the most adventurous? Thing you’ve done in. Your life. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I’ve done a lot. 

Speaker 5 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yeah, I. Probably traveling to South America alone, so I did a A2 week plus stint to Peru. Too much Picchu. I spent a week in the Amazon Rainforest A5 Hour boat ride away from the the nearest source of electricity. 

Samir Sharma 

And when was that ohh. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Probably maybe about 15 years ago now. Yeah. Yeah, 2004, 2005. Yeah. 

Samir Sharma 

OK, so so it would have. OK. So infrastructure would have been. Poorer than it is now, and. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yeah, yeah. 

Speaker 4 

Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

No, but I did that. But I did that by design. I wanted to get off the grid. I wanted to go. I went fishing. 

Samir Sharma 

And just experience. Wow. 

Malcolm Hawker 

In the Amazon at yeah. I wanted to see the pink dolphins of the Amazon. River, I wanted to experience just kind of went like. To be there. I did I in my 30s, late 20s. And 30s I did a lot of solo travel. But but that one was a little extreme. Where I was I was pretty much out there. 

Samir Sharma 

I bet. 

Malcolm Hawker 

They had satellite phone and that was about it. It was cool. Good experience. 

Samir Sharma 

How would you define yourself in three words? 

Malcolm Hawker 

Loyal. Hardworking. 

Samir Sharma 

Malcolm Hawker 

I would say determined that’s probably too close to hard working, but no, we can go with that determined, hardworking, loyal. 

Samir Sharma 

No, no, it’s fine. What’s the biggest surprise you’ve had this year? 

Malcolm Hawker 

Biggest surprise this year? Oh my gosh. 

Samir Sharma 

There’s a lot of size, by the way. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Malcolm, you’re so funny because. It all by writing. It’s like we live in a time of constant. Disruption and disruption. It’s the new. Normal and it’s all about disruption, right, like. I think I’ll just go with the easy. One which we’re we’re. And and and recent I was. I was quite surprised by the results of the election here. In the US. 

Samir Sharma 

1. Ohh yes, what the the the midterms? 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I the, the, the, the pervasive thought and. And by the way, we should just stop pulling. I don’t even know why. We do it like they’re. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. 

Malcolm Hawker 

They’re always wrong. It’s just. Separate conversation, but. The School of thought was going to be that one party. Was going to just just, just. 

Samir Sharma 

Ohh absolutely and. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Clean, clean the decks. And there would be massive shifts of power in in both houses of the government. The lower house and the upper house. And it just didn’t happen. 

Samir Sharma 

It didn’t pan out. 

Malcolm Hawker 

It didn’t. 

Samir Sharma 

No, I I was. 

Malcolm Hawker 

It didn’t happen. 

Samir Sharma 

I was tracking it. And I was really surprised as well. I think a lot of the the the party that we’re expecting, the overwhelming majority, we’re extremely surprised. So yeah. Yeah, no. Is there anything that is currently inspiring you in the data world right now? I know you touched on it before. On it before in terms of. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yeah, yeah. 

Samir Sharma 

Data management, but is there? A specific pillar in that that is kind of like ohh that’s pretty cool. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yes, without a doubt I. New technology. 

Samir Sharma 

Malcolm Hawker 

Particularly blockchain. 

Speaker 3 

Malcolm Hawker 

Now I know we’ve been talking about blockchain for years. Gartner put it on the on the data analytics type cycle in 2019 as as the rocket ship it was going up and then two years later it fizzled and. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, for ages, yeah. 

Speaker 3 

Yep, Yep. 

Malcolm Hawker 

It was gone. But I am bullish on blockchain in the service of data. 

Samir Sharma 

Right, right. 

Malcolm Hawker 

And in the. Survey writ large of how businesses run. It it’s it. It it is. It’s slow, you know. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

You know, business adoption is is lagging. But it’s there. There’s a there, there. Is it going to solve all problems and of course not solve all problems, right? There’s there but there. Are some problems that I think purpose built? 4 blockchain during the data management realm that I think are going to be very, very interesting, particularly when you fold in the notion of widespread data sharing, right? 

Samir Sharma 

Yep, Yep. Yeah, true, true. 

Malcolm Hawker 

So so blockchain is is very, very good at creating ecosystems of shared. Data right? Blockchain is blockchain. 

Speaker 3 

MMM MMM. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Database. That’s it. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, it’s about sharing. Yeah, it’s yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

It’s it’s a shared distributed database, albeit a rather rudimentary one, in the form of. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

A Ledger. But just think about all of the applications of of situations where you know companies as they participate in a network of anything and the supply chain in a supply chain network in a in network of shared. Consumers and Network of of shared interests, whatever those, it just would be where you could have access to a governed, managed, controlled, trustworthy, shared set of data that has consistent and consistent governance rules. Where you’re actually incentivized to manage the data that is in that shared network. 

Speaker 3 

MMMMMM. 

Malcolm Hawker 

If we can be sharing cars, we can be sharing if we can be sharing all sorts of other things, renting space in our garages, for heaven sakes, if we if we can be sharing these things, I think that we could be sharing data in a more widespread basis. 

Speaker 

So if we can. 

Malcolm Hawker 

And I think blockchain will be the means to do it. 

Samir Sharma 

And interesting one of the things about the blockchain still is the energy that it needs to to power it and. Drive that. So that’s still something, which is? Look, you know, unsustainable in in you know. 

Malcolm Hawker 

For for certain, for. Certain forms of blockchain or proof of work blockchains which is. What Bitcoin is, yeah. 

Samir Sharma 

The mining. Yeah, yeah. It it takes a lot of. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I mean, it’s there’s this thing called the trilemma with blockchain. I could I. Could, in terms of security, scale, scalability and there’s trade-offs. In terms of those things and and and Bitcoin. Is very, very very very very secure. But it is not that scalable. 

Samir Sharma 

No, it’s not. No, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

So anyway, I I believe there’s a future there. 

Speaker 4 

Yeah. Yep. 

Samir Sharma 

1. What’s the best piece of advice you’ve ever? 

Malcolm Hawker 

For my father. 

Samir Sharma 

Malcolm Hawker 

And I I I doubted this for. A long time. Through my 20s and 30s, but I believe it to be fundamentally true, which is the cream will. Rise to the top. 

Samir Sharma 

Malcolm Hawker 

Be very, very, very good at whatever you do. 

Speaker 3 

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Right. What whether that, whether you were a school teacher, whether you are a doctor, an electrician, a plumber, what whether you are the garbage collector, it doesn’t matter be the best at what you do. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah, whatever it is. Correct. Yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

And the rewards will follow. 

Samir Sharma 

Yep, Yep. 

Malcolm Hawker 

So what my father taught me and what he he he pounded into my head constantly was that money is exhaust. Right. It is a byproduct of a. Process and in. This case the process is working and hard working and being excellent and being good at what you. Do right if you are very, very, very good at all of those things. All the other stuff will come right now. 

Speaker 3 

Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

That doesn’t mean that that the world’s greatest teacher in the world are multimillionaires, right? But the money and the rewards and and and all the other intangibles, I think are very, very rewarding. Rich and fulfilling career. 

Samir Sharma 

And yeah, and I think you’re you’re right. But you’ve gotta put the hard work in. It’s not as if you just turn up to work and say, oh, the universe will give me everything I need. It’s it’s, you know, you’ve got to put that hard work and you’ve gotta do the graft, you know, and and and you’ve got to get to that excellence point. So I think I think it’s good, but I want to know why did you doubt that? 

Malcolm Hawker 

Because of all the lessons that you one would necessarily have to learn in their in 30s if they’re participating in the corporate world right there, there’s a lot of hard lessons that you need to learn along the way, right in that sometimes that this doesn’t work. Sometimes people fail up, right? 

Speaker 3 

Mm-hmm. MHM. 

Malcolm Hawker 

The less skill. So less resourceful, less hard working person is rewarded more than you are, right? 

Speaker 3 

MMM MMM. 

Malcolm Hawker 

And when you’re when you’re in your 20s and your 30s, you. 

Samir Sharma 

Right. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Know you you find the exceptions, you find the edge cases and those things you you can. You can either use them to motivate you, or you can use them to demotivate you, and in my case I was using. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Them to right. 

Samir Sharma 

I got you. 

Malcolm Hawker 

And saying OK, this is all broken. 

Samir Sharma 

I got you. 

Speaker 

Yeah, no. 

Malcolm Hawker 

My father didn’t know what he was talking about because there was all these these there’s these buffoons who are getting promoted over me there. These people are putting in half the effort I figured out. I very very quick, I didn’t not quickly. It took me arguably decades to figure out that the cream will rise to the top. 

Samir Sharma 

We’ll to the yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

There is a certain thing called working smart right there. 

Samir Sharma 

Yes, yes. 

Malcolm Hawker 

There are things that you do need to realize about participating in corporate life right there. 

Speaker 3 

MHM, MHM. 

Malcolm Hawker 

There are certain truisms. That if you understand them and. You you accept them. Then then you can work around them, or you can incorporate them into your. Model as it. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Were I’ve made a YouTube post recently about people quite quitting right and where I shared a few kind of clips about some of the things that I’ve learned. 

Samir Sharma 

Right. 

Speaker 3 

MHM, MHM. 

Malcolm Hawker 

One of them is that when it comes to leadership and and you may find this interesting, you may want to. Challenge me, I don’t know. But but the the funny phrase I use is there’s. No magic beans. Right. I used to think in my 20s and 30s that that senior leaders. With big titles. They just had something that I didn’t have right. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, that’s not true. 

Malcolm Hawker 

No, they don’t. 

Samir Sharma 

No, they don’t. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Right now. Now they now they do have a life of learning and they do have a life of being in, in the corporate world and and they have all their lessons and their experiences and lessons and what wonderful. 

Samir Sharma 

Of course they do. Yeah, the experience. And so yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. 

Malcolm Hawker 

But in terms of like. A secret sauce? No, actually study after study after study has shown that it. 

Samir Sharma 

No there isn’t. 

Malcolm Hawker 

A lot of it, frankly, has to do with networking and timing. 

Samir Sharma 

Yep, Yep. As they said, yes. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Put the two together in what you got is a little bit of luck. 

Samir Sharma 

Yes, exactly. Do you? Do you remember at the moment your career completely changed? 

Malcolm Hawker 

I I I I I can vividly remember. I don’t know. I I’d say I was probably. 27 or 28 or 29 somewhere in there and I and I, I’ve been moving up the corporate ladder been getting. I’ve been getting slow and gradual raises. Interestingly, I was really kind of bound to one company because I was in the process of getting my green card. 

Samir Sharma 

Right. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Here in the. US right and and and and which kind of makes you. A bit kind of bound to specific companies, and while that’s being process, you really can’t go anywhere and that process took a. 

Speaker 5 

Sure. Yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Lot a lot of years, but. What I figured out was and I had an epiphany, and this is both professional and personal. Which was that I’m in charge. 

Samir Sharma 

Yep, yeah, true. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I am in charge. Hard stop. There’s nothing being done to me. Right. There is nothing being being done like that. That like I cannot blame this person or this person, this person or this person or this situation for. Things that are happening to me, everything that happens to me is a direct result of conscious or unconscious actions, unconscious or unconscious act I actually, I I just gets into a little bit of spirituality and I do. 

Samir Sharma 

All right. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Believe that that, that we. We can actually influence the world around us through our thoughts and whether those thoughts are or whether those thoughts are negative. Obviously you know, bad things happen. Well, people get into accidents. You know, people catch, catch diseases and all sorts of other things that were not their fault. And we’re not created by them. But the minute I came to the conclusion that I am in charge, right. And and there are no magic beans. If I want to work 4 hours a day then I will work 4 hours a day instead of me looking over at somebody and. Judging somebody because of how lazy. Yes, yeah, I just. I turned. Here, instead of pointing at everybody else and everybody else was like them, them them them. They’re holding me back. Or how are they getting what they’re getting and why are they making more than I’m making? But I turned it all to myself. Wait a minute. This is about me. 

Speaker 4 

Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

This is about my choices about my life and my career. 

Speaker 5 

I agree. 

Malcolm Hawker 

And I can I be a victim to it and an observer of it? Or I can? Or I can see exactly. 

Samir Sharma 

They do something about it, yeah. What makes you feel? 

Malcolm Hawker 

And I remember that. 

Samir Sharma 

No, that is that, that, that. That’s a. It’s it’s it’s good learning. It’s it’s good experience cause many people do. Play the outward victim and and and that’s something that they just need to to learn to, to sort of internalize. But anyway, we could talk about that for a long time. What makes you feel accomplished? 

Malcolm Hawker 

Interestingly, being able to see the fruits. Of my labor. So another reason why I don’t spend a lot of time in front of television is because if I’m not out there, kind of in awe of the wonder of the natural world world around me, I am actively trying to shape it. Gardening working in the yard, doing whatever. Like building thinging with things being in my garage and doing little DIY projects. I’ve built a. Career around a completely generally and completely and totally intangible world. Right, like, hey, I helped. I helped build the world’s greatest MDM software platform or I I I ran an organization that that made amazing software had the best user experience in the website ever or in my case, I literally had a helping hand in the creation of the consumerization of the. 

Speaker 5 

Yeah, yeah. 

Speaker 3 

Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Internet, right? I worked for AOL for 10 years from at the very, very beginning, like. That’s great. Yay for me like. You see it, you can you. Touch it like no. 

Samir Sharma 

Well, you can you you can touch it everyday. The Internet, I mean, you know, you’re on. It every day, I mean, I guess. 

Malcolm Hawker 

But but that. There’s a very to me there’s a. Feeling from from. At actually building something or constructing something that I could. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I I get that. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Say like there’s just something in me. It’s like Malcolm make thing right. And and Malcolm can hold thing, right. 

Samir Sharma 

And Malcolm, show you. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Like, yeah, like exactly what I may look, I can hold it and it’s it’s this. Thing right, that’s. 

Speaker 5 

Really. Really it. 

Malcolm Hawker 

There’s something about that one. 

Samir Sharma 

Love it what 3 words describe living in the US. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I know I keep saying these are wonderful. These are wonderful questions, by the way, because I spend half of my life living here and half of my life living. 

Samir Sharma 

Yes, in Canada, yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Though I actually help I I think I’m rather qualified to answer. This question so so so. 

Samir Sharma 

Sure. I think you are. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Thank you for for answering it or for asking it because I think a lot of people, if you never leave the fish bowl, how do you even know, right? 

Samir Sharma 

Yes, how do. You what’s? Yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

And if you and. If you, if you, if you. Only leave the fishbowl to go on. Well, then, that’s not really. 

Samir Sharma 

Yes, no, no. 

Malcolm Hawker 

That’s not real life. The three words to describe living in the US. Well, this is going to be tainted by my perception and by by my kind of innate my innate optimism. 

Samir Sharma 

Sure. Well, it’s your perception. Yeah, but this is you. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yes it is. 

Samir Sharma 

Malcolm Hawker 

I will. I will just use I I will. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Say wild and. That and that, that that’s a lot. That’s a. That’s a lot of different things. 

Samir Sharma 

You don’t have to describe it. That’s fine, just wild. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yeah, while. 

Samir Sharma 

OK, wild, chaotic and fruitful. 

Speaker 5 

Perfect. Perfect. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yeah, yeah, I. Mean the the hardest thing that I had to learn being here. The hardest thing. Like I grew up in Canada and you. Know which which is. You know, parliamentary system very, very, very socialist by comparison to here. And the hardest lesson that I had to learn? I grew up watching American television and being under heavily under, influenced by American culture. When I moved here, the hardest thing that I had to learn and it took me a long time. Was that the decisions? Are made for the betterment of generally the individual versus in Canada, the decisions are made for. 

Samir Sharma 

It’s made for the whole. 

Malcolm Hawker 

The group level. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

And that pervades at every level of government here. It pervades at a federal level, and even down to a local level, where which explains why. At a very, very high level can explain why things like education here are viewed as a local thing and local issue and. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, sure. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Not a national issue. 

Samir Sharma 

And not a federal. Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

It just creates this hyper localism because everything is about me and appealing to me as an individual voter, consul. For Citizen right where? 

Speaker 5 

Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

OK, well, as a school board, how do I make a curriculum that appeals to to my local people here? 

Speaker 3 

MMM. 

Malcolm Hawker 

So I always. Used to think you know I would get. I would when I. First, offended knowing anything about. Like like like. Nobody knew I was like, wait a minute. Trading partner. Your biggest name, you know, third history, you name it. And you know nothing. 

Speaker 4 

Right. 

Malcolm Hawker 

And you’re fine with it. 

Speaker 5 

Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Like that used to that used to just. 

Speaker 3 

Like, what’s wrong? What? 

Speaker 5 

Drive you nuts? 

Malcolm Hawker 

Like, why don’t you know these things? Because in Canada, like part of the education we would. Learn about the. US we learn about Europe. We would learn about. All these other things because because education would be. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, but you but you, but you’ve been touched by, you know, you, you you were essentially under something called the Commonwealth. So it was very different, you know? 

Malcolm Hawker 

Indeed, but. If you kind of acknowledge, oh, wait a minute. Hold on. Decisions are made to hyperlocal here because it’s really all about the individual and not the group. Well then that explains. Why people are not learning about Canada? In schools, because they’re learning about U.S. Because that’s only that’s relevant. 

Samir Sharma 

And and and that that sort of. Takes precedent over anything else, so I’m I’m assuming that that that it really will be. No, no, it’s it’s a good, good points. What’s what’s heavily played on your music playlist right now? 

Malcolm Hawker 

I I’m I’m old, but I have relatively modern tastes. I would think, for for somebody my age I’ve been. Be playing over and over and over and over the late album from a electronic. I will call it electronic band called Odesza. Their Seattle based duo that just creates unbelievable music. Love it? They had a release about six months ago and I just keep saying it over and over and over and over and over and over again. It’s it’s. So that that kind of that genre, I would just kind of loosely call it electronic, but it’s not really electronic, it’s not the kind of like glow sticks and you know German dance. 

Speaker 3 

No, no, no, no. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Club electronic party. 

Samir Sharma 

I I can’t imagine you doing that, but OK. 

Malcolm Hawker 

No, no, no, but yeah, Odessa is. 

Samir Sharma 

1. Sounds sounds good. What three things are at the top of your bucket list? 

Malcolm Hawker 

My bucket list. My gosh it it just grows and grows every, every, every day. To spend a recount of time visiting Japan, I’ve been there before. 

Speaker 4 

Malcolm Hawker 

I’ve been there before, but I haven’t got off the beaten path. I I would. 

Samir Sharma 

Malcolm Hawker 

I would like to kind of just gonna see the countryside of Japan. Same is true with Ireland. I’ve been a few spots in Ireland, I’ve I’ve been to cork, I’ve been to Dublin but I would love to spend some quality time in Dublin or in in Ireland, maybe even prolonged period of time in Ireland. I have Irish lineage. My mother is Irish. 

Samir Sharma 

Right. OK. OK. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I actually just, well, not recently. It’s two years ago now. I’m in. I’m in queue for. An hour’s. Passport which is which is kind of cool which. 

Speaker 5 

Oh wow. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Which which would give me the ability to to have prolonged period of time. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, you could travel. Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yeah, there’s, I don’t know why, but there’s just something calling me. My next bucket list item I think would be also is to spend a decent amount of time doing photography in Death Valley in California. 

Samir Sharma 

OK, wow. Great landscapes. 

Malcolm Hawker 

So I love the I love the sand. I love the landscapes. There’s there’s to me. That is kind of like my perfect photography experience where these there’s colors and shapes and where you could create a lot of beauty out of relatively simple scenes. That’s that’s where one of the places that. I’d like to go next. 

Samir Sharma 

Do you have a guilty pleasure? What book did you most recently finish? 

Malcolm Hawker 

Author by the name of Peter Z. Zed EE IHAN, it’s called the the end of the the end. Of the world. It’s not as bad as it it’s not going to be. As bad as the what is it I’m. Looking at it right now. I know it’s in my bedroom. It’s basically Peter zeihan. He talks about the the end of globalization and and the demographic shifts and and it was just released a few months ago. 

Speaker 4 

OK, OK. 

Malcolm Hawker 

So it’s a relatively new the end of the world is just the beginning, the end of the world is just the beginning and and what he’s talking he’s he’s. 

Samir Sharma 

Right, right. 

Speaker 3 

Malcolm Hawker 

At heart, he’s a demographer. Studying kind of large scale patterns in demographics, but he’s but he’s also a little bit of an economist and he kind of overlays those two together to talk about the underlying demographic shifts that are fueling the end of globalization. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah. 

Speaker 3 

Yeah. Yes. Right. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yes, the supply chain disruptions are fueling, you know, shifts in globalization, consumer patterns and. And behaviors and. Censorship all and on and on and on, but his underlying treatises is that it’s all about demographics, OK? And you know, and and and having for example. A period in China with A1 child policy and the fact that there are no millennials in China. In essence, of course, there are millennials in China but but, but in terms of what the numbers that you would expect for that demographic group, they are like, they’re like a sliver of where they would usually be, which means that they’re, which means that. 

Speaker 5 

Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

The number one kind of consumer block to replace what was the Chinese Boomers is not there. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Right, which which? Which means that they won’t be able to sustain their own economy, which which means that they will be highly reliant on exports and on and on and on. But how? How demographic fueling shift and and and? 

Samir Sharma 

Did that happen? Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

Malcolm Hawker 

This theory says is the class is uniquely positioned to capitalize on that because we actually have a fairly robust demographic this this demographic pyramid, it looks like a pyramid from old to young, where we will and we we have access to resources and we have, we have a consumer base to continue to to grow. So that’s when I recently. Yeah, yeah, yeah, if you’re. 

Samir Sharma 

I like that. Like the sound eventually. 

Speaker 4 

If you. Could go. 

Speaker 5 

Yeah, if you. 

Samir Sharma 

Could go back in time. What would you tell your 16 year old self? Apart from the fact that there is sun somewhere. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yeah, I. I I would tell him to probably just relax a little. 

Speaker 5 

Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I would tell him to not be in a rush. I would tell him. Everything’s going to workout. I would tell him. You working for great things, but you don’t. Need to force them. 

Speaker 3 

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Samir Sharma 

If you if you could switch lives with one person for a day, who would it be? 

Malcolm Hawker 

Well, one I wouldn’t. But if I had to. 

Speaker 4 

Well, if you have the chance, come on to to just stand in some. 

Malcolm Hawker 

If I if I if I could, if I could, if if if I could. 

Samir Sharma 

Of his shoes? Yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yeah, if if. To switch with one person who would that? My dad. 

Speaker 5 

OK, very cool. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I’d like I’d like to see the world through. His eyes for, for, for. 

Speaker 3 

Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

A day I would love to be given for a day. I would love to unlock his wisdom and his perspective, and it would be enough and close enough to mine that I think I’d be able to internalize it. 

Samir Sharma 

Yes, yes. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I’d be able to operationalize it right? Like if I if I was like dropped into like. The body of. Like whoever’s right King Charles. I don’t know. Whatever. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah. 

Speaker 3 

Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

The next day, when I’m when I’m plucked from his body, am I going to be king? No, no. 

Samir Sharma 

But you know what? 

Malcolm Hawker 

I’m not. 

Samir Sharma 

It felt like a bit. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yeah, but, but but but that, that. Could create more. Harm than good, right? I I think maybe. Maybe a bad example but. But yeah, I think my dad, I think. 

Samir Sharma 

I don’t know. I don’t know if it’s a bad example. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I think my dad, I think I. Yeah, I think I think my dad cause cause thing to to to just kind of leap, you know, 30 years of it and be be, you know and and have that wisdom be maybe a little more. Operationalize, operationalize table that, yeah, I’m struggling. 

Samir Sharma 

If you had. To change something in the world, right? Now, what would it be? 

Malcolm Hawker 

I would. Hand wave eliminate the risk of global thermonuclear annihilation. 

Samir Sharma 

Oh my goodness, that’s a that’s a big, big yes, that’s massive. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yeah, I mean. Well, well, sure. Well, but it was Greenfield, right? You said like do. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Anything that that would? That that could be it. 

Samir Sharma 

Perfect. No, that would be great. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I’m I I I’m I’m concerned about. 

Samir Sharma 

That’d be great. 

Malcolm Hawker 

The cavalier nature of. Nuclear escalation, that is, that is happening now and and and and Western involvement in in that and again just kind of being cavalier about it. I mean she’s she’s no longer Prime Minister. But Liz Truss was asked would you press the button? She said yes and people cheered. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah. Yeah. Well. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Like what? 

Samir Sharma 

That’s why she didn’t last for that long. 

Speaker 

But but but but but but but. 

Malcolm Hawker 

But but point being right like like, wait a minute. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Hold on. A second that’s a virtue killing us all as a virtue. 

Samir Sharma 

Yes, the and and and that’s that that in my view is one of those slightly skewed virtues of, you know, just just to speaking to the. Speaking to the people that will just cheer you and you know. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Well, I’m thought about it well and and and on the to me. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah. Populism. Populism. Yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

On the surface, there’s nothing inherently. Wrong with populism? 

Samir Sharma 

Well, well, I mean, in her case, in her case, you know, not the best person. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I would. I would take it over leadership. Right. Right, right. Well, was she. Was she really that popular, though? I mean, real. 

Samir Sharma 

Well, shoot. OK to begin with. You know, if you, I mean we can go. Into this, but I’m not. You know, if you look at everybody when she came out with her policies, the papers, everyone’s like, yeah, we love this as soon as it all tanked with every everybody was saying, oh, we hate this. So there you go. I mean, it’s just stupidity. Frankly, you know it. 

Speaker 4 

Well, right. Well. 

Samir Sharma 

From lots. Of people. Anyway, let’s move on. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yeah, yeah. Anyway, I would I would eliminate eliminate the off of blowing us all up. 

Samir Sharma 

Let’s move on. The yes of of doing that, yes, I get it. If you could resurrect one person from history and put them in the world today, who would it be? 

Malcolm Hawker 

I’ve been thinking about the whole nuclear thing recently. A lot. Actually, but not from a fear perspective. I I think that fear creates fear. So I’m I’m not. I’m not fearful it. It’s just you. You would you would be silly to to not have concerns there and what I’ve been thinking that I don’t know. Mahatma Gandhi just keeps coming back into into my head right over and over and and over and over again. And I know that his situation was slightly different, right it was. It it wasn’t, it wasn’t. He ended up influencing the world in a certain way, but his his concerns were inherently local, right? 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, of course they were. Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

But but still? But but how he went about it, right? I’m not a. I think there are. There is a time to raise arms. I think there is. A time to fight. But I think we need a little bit more of the Gandhi like we exist. We exist in a complex system that that that is always form of balance. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

But I think that we’re a little bit balanced right now with with, with, with this cavalier about nuclear now with this. 

Samir Sharma 

Right. Yeah, yeah we are. 

Malcolm Hawker 

100 towards work with hating our neighbors with with thinking that our neighbor is our enemy. Right and and maybe because they think different politically or or because they have different views or different or different ethnicities or whatever those things are. And I just I think we need a little more love and I think we need a little more. Understanding and I think we we need to. To to like our neighbors. And I know that sounds really, really trite, but I think somebody like the Mahatma would would help. And maybe Martin Luther King, maybe a few others that would. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, it was only one person, Malcolm. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yeah, yeah, exactly. But I. Mean could we just get a little? More love, for heaven’s sake. 

Samir Sharma 

There we go. A little more love, maybe play some music. You know. 

Malcolm Hawker 

There you go. Yeah. 

Speaker 4 

What’s the one thing you wish you? 

Samir Sharma 

Knew at the age of 19. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I wish that. I knew. I was entirely and completely and 100% control of my own destiny. Some reason at the age of 19 I. Thought that there were other powers that that were controlling. 

Samir Sharma 

That we’re you, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Or influencing the. Area that had or that you know and and. I I think that that ended up a lot of unnecessary stress. 

Speaker 3 

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Later in in life, so I would tell the 19 year old you were driving the bus, your choices, your thoughts, your actions, your beliefs are what creates your reality and nothing more and nothing less. 

Speaker 3 

Yeah, yeah. 

Samir Sharma 

Yep, Yep, perfect. If you could offer one piece of advice to upcoming data leaders, what would it be? 

Malcolm Hawker 

Go work in the business for a while. 

Samir Sharma 

Perfect. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Go, go, go, go. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, I agree. I agree. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Do some procurement. Be, go. Work in sales operations for six months. 

Speaker 5 

I I I. 

Samir Sharma 

I I think what you’re telling me is just go work out how the business makes money. 

Speaker 5 

Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Walk a mile in somebody. Else’s shoes. 

Samir Sharma 

Yep, Yep, Yep. 

Speaker 4 

Right. 

Samir Sharma 

If you weren’t living in the US, where would you be living? 

Malcolm Hawker 

Well, it’s interesting. You know, as as a part of moving here, there was a little bit of, you know, given the fact that I have a Canadian passport, a US passport. In June, to have a. EU passport. We, we and I can be pretty much anywhere we went through kind of. A bit of. A, some, some soul searching. And where would we want to be if? We could be anywhere. And we went through a lot of it. I I I think for right now I would. I I was going to say Scotland but given given Brexit, that’s I think there’s a little bit of a concern there. So so let let’s go with the the Irish side somewhere, yeah. 

Speaker 5 

OK, very cool. Yeah, good. 

Samir Sharma 

What’s one city you’ve always dreamed of travelling to? 

Malcolm Hawker 

But have not. I’ve been so spoiled. To hear I’ve I’ve been able to. 

Samir Sharma 

It sounds like it. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yeah, no, I’ve been. I’ve been well, not spoiled. I mean I it’s the fruit of my labor, but I’ve been blessed to to be able to visit a lot of different places. Hmm, looking at the map in my head. Maybe Prague? I haven’t been to Prague yet. 

Speaker 4 

OK, you haven’t been. 

Malcolm Hawker 

It was wonderful things about Prague. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, it’s beautiful. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I’m not. I I. Yeah, that that’s probably fairly high on the list. 

Samir Sharma 

Malcolm Hawker 

Let’s go across. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, good. What was the best pet? What was the best lesson your parents ever taught you? 

Malcolm Hawker 

I I’m I mentioned already, my father said about the cream rising to the top. 

Samir Sharma 

Any good Nuggets from your mother? 

Malcolm Hawker 

The other one, the other? Well, the other one spirit. So, you know, my Irish Scottish mother, you know, nose to the grindstone, don’t mess her. Stop your crying, you know. But I think it’s. It’s pretty hard work. I I I learned from my parents. 

Samir Sharma 

Same things. Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

They they they just had their 60th wedding anniversary. They’re both still alive. They’ve been together 60 years. 

Speaker 3 

Wow. Oh my goodness. 

Malcolm Hawker 

It’s amazing that they haven’t. They haven’t killed each. Other yet. 

Speaker 4 

I don’t say that. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Well, but I mean it’s it’s funny cause it’s it’s it’s they they clearly they they adore each other and clearly they love. 

Speaker 5 

Yeah, of course they do. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Each other but but but. You know there’s there’s ups and downs. Like any relationship, yeah. 

Speaker 5 

Of course there is every it’s that’s relationships. That’s marriage, isn’t it? 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yeah, but they but they they stuck through it, man. And and they, they’ve they they have, they have persevered and they’ve stuck through it and through good and bad thick and thin. 

Samir Sharma 

That’s that’s, that’s what they said to each other. 

Malcolm Hawker 

And it’s it’s it’s work. 

Samir Sharma 

So they, you know. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Right indeed. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah. Favorite food. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I I would. I would call this kind of like. Let’s just call it American farm to table, right? 

Speaker 4 

1. Yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Like I like. I like simple good ingredients, fresh ingredients, simply prepared like that kind of a meal. To me is. 

Samir Sharma 

It’s perfect, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Perfect, right? 

Speaker 3 

Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Like a good a nice. Light piece of fish that is fresh with. Something that was grown organically close by and that that that is love it. 

Speaker 3 

Yep, Yep. 

Samir Sharma 

Very good favorite podcast. Not mine or yours. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I it’s interesting. Before I started my own, I really didn’t listen to podcasts very often. 

Speaker 5 

Malcolm Hawker 

I will, I will say because it is because it is a podcast. I I will say yes, I listened before and I listen now, Joe. Program I know and I know. 

Speaker 4 

1. Yeah. Yeah, right. 

Malcolm Hawker 

That’s I know that’s a very. Popular answer and it’s kind of like a default answer but. 

Speaker 4 

Yeah. No, I mean. 

Samir Sharma 

But it’s it’s one you like. 

Malcolm Hawker 

It is. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, nothing wrong with that. How do you relax? 

Malcolm Hawker 

To me. A great form of relaxation is just being outside and being in nature. But I I think like if if I had to do a like crash relaxation, it’s like OK, you’ve got an hour and a half, which is not really relaxation is you find out it I mean whatever but like let’s just say like I had an hour. And 1/2. And I wanted to to get chill really, really quick. What I would do is and this again is part of the blessing of of being where I am, and the choices that I’ve made, I would go to my garage, grab my fishing pole, grab a beer, go down to my pier, which is 2 houses away, and put a line in the water and try. To catch something and drinks. 

Samir Sharma 

Perfect. 

Malcolm Hawker 

That’s it. Yeah, yeah. 

Samir Sharma 

That’s great. What’s a movie? What’s a movie that made you cry? 

Malcolm Hawker 

God the notebook. 

Speaker 5 

OK, that’s alright. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I mean, yeah, that’s right. It’s like it’s, I think I’m calling it right, which is, which is it’s the kind of the the the, the capital where the woman is like is is gets Alzheimer’s and and forgets but flashes in and. 

Samir Sharma 

And, yeah. Yeah, exactly. 

Malcolm Hawker 

It it it is, I think James Garner is the husband I want to say, and he’s and he stays by her side. 

Samir Sharma 

I can’t remember her. 

Malcolm Hawker 

But they’re they’re they’re constantly going back and forth of the stories and coming together, and then they’re aging and. 

Samir Sharma 

Yes, in the. Story, too. 

Malcolm Hawker 

They’re coming together. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

They’re aging that. Sorry that that. 

Speaker 4 

Awesome. Yeah, cool. 

Malcolm Hawker 

That made me cry. 

Speaker 4 

Maybe maybe this? 

Samir Sharma 

Is already been answered. Who would you say is your biggest inspiration? It sounds like your father is probably your biggest inspiration. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yeah, for sure. Yep. 

Samir Sharma 

What can you, if you have, you know if you have one in your room right now, what can you see from your window? 

Malcolm Hawker 

I do. I I can. I can see. Well, I can see my neighbor across the street and I can see this. 

Samir Sharma 

Malcolm Hawker 

I can see this lovely tree called the gumbo. That’s got a little bit. 

Speaker 5 

A jumbo limbo. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yeah, it’s got a bit of an odd. Name it’s a. It’s a. It’s a tropical. Tree called the gumbo Limbo, also known as the tourist tree. It has this peeling bark that that turns the trunk red and is the metaphor of the tourist floor. 

Speaker 5 

Malcolm Hawker 

But yeah, I see a palm tree. I see. A gumbo gumbo. 

Speaker 3 

Oh, very cool. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Limbo and a couple of palm trees. And my neighbors yard that is often populated by a flock of what are called ibises. White birds that that, that, that, that for whatever reason go on my neighbor’s grass, but they don’t come on mine. I don’t know why. 

Speaker 5 

I know. It’s just. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Samir Sharma 

Maybe your neighbor puts some food out there for them. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Well, his he doesn’t really have grass. It’s more like Clover. I have grass. 

Samir Sharma 

1. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Gonna have. Yeah anyway. 

Samir Sharma 

What’s something from your childhood that you still have? 

Malcolm Hawker 

I’m I’m looking at it right now. Sorry. That’s I have my my childhood coin collection and my grand and my grandfather’s childhood coin collection. 

Speaker 4 

Oh yeah. 

Samir Sharma 

Oh, fantastic. 

Malcolm Hawker 

So yeah, I I was just I it’s on my counter. My grandfather made a little wooden box. It’s like it’s got his name on it. He can grab his name on it and it’s like, you know Tom Hawker 19121912 and in. 

Samir Sharma 

That’s amazing. 

Malcolm Hawker 

It is is all of. His like his coins that he collected as a little kid. Which is pretty cool. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, very cool connection. Back to your grandfather. Is there a data trend that you would like to see disappear? 

Malcolm Hawker 

Data literacy. 

Samir Sharma 

Good. Do you? Have a favorite? 

Speaker 4 

I’m laughing that because I feel very much the same way as you do you do you have a favorite band? 

Malcolm Hawker 

Data literacy needs to go. Gotta go. 

Speaker 4 

I guess it’s. I guess it’s sorry I’m asking you this. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yeah, well, yeah, but. I’ll tell you data literacy, the underlying concepts are fine, right? 

Speaker 3 

Yes, yes, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

To a certain degree, they’re fine. But data literacy is a condescending, judgmental phrase. 

Samir Sharma 

Yes. Yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

That makes. Usability value of data. Somebody else’s problem. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah. Well, this. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Right. If if we want to be serious about treating data as a product, right, like if if we’re serious about this, which I doubt that we really. Really are. But let’s say we are serious about data as a product, right? If I made a widget right? If I? Made anything and that widget was. Like product. And the return rate were high, right where the failure rates were high? When nobody bought the product, I wouldn’t turn around and say ohh yeah. 

Samir Sharma 

Oh yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Well, that’s so that’s a. 

Samir Sharma 

They don’t get it. 

Malcolm Hawker 

That’s a that’s a product. 

Samir Sharma 

Yes, yes. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Literacy issue. You just don’t get it. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

And I’m gonna, and I’m gonna. Gonna train you. You, you, you poor folks. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

About how to be more data literate. Because you you’re just not smart enough to figure out how to use my brilliant widget. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

No, that’s not how it works, right? If you want to be, if you want to be product driven, if you want to think data is a product. Well then that’s a. Go to market exercise usability training right fit for purpose. Did your requirements actually meet the need right? 

Samir Sharma 

Correct, correct, yes. Yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Are you solving a problem? It’s not a well. Oh, we we need. To we we we just exactly. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, you just don’t get it and you’re stupid and blah, blah. I mean, you know, I was on a call the other day, and it was a with a bunch of data leaders. And somebody said, well, you know, we’re we’re doing it this way because the business teams are data illiterate and. Just thought how how dare you say that? How dare you? You know? I mean, that’s awful to say that, you know, and and and these are influential data leaders. And I just thought what an absolute load of rubbish. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Complete load of rubbish. 

Speaker 3 

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yes and and but. But that mindset is pervasive. 

Speaker 4 

It’s like the thing that you. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Don’t get and it’s. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Your fault that you’re not getting any value from my the data that I’m that that I so benevolently give you. 

Speaker 3 

Yes, yes. 

Samir Sharma 

Correct, correct. OK. Well, we can. We can, we could band, we could talk about this forever. Let’s move on swiftly. I know your favorite bands. That’s not band. 

Speaker 4 

Yeah, yeah. 

Samir Sharma 

What’s the superpower? You wish you had? 

Malcolm Hawker 

I wish I could time travel. 

Samir Sharma 

Perfect. Where would you go? Where would it be the first destination? 

Malcolm Hawker 

That I would time travel to. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I’d probably go back. I’d probably I wouldn’t go forward. I would probably go back. I’d I’d like, I’d like to meet my family. 

Samir Sharma 

Very nice. Very nice. What’s something that you don’t want to be doing in 10 years time? 

Malcolm Hawker 

Talking about data literacy, that was a slam dunk. 

Speaker 4 

Let’s leave it at that. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I don’t. I don’t want to. Be doing it in in in 10 years. I I I. Don’t want to be talking about how we. Suck at governance. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah, yeah, true. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I don’t want to be talking. About that in 10 years, just just don’t. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we shouldn’t be talking about it now. But anyway looking. Yeah, looking back on your life, is there anything you would have done differently? 

Malcolm Hawker 

Absolutely not. 

Samir Sharma 

OK, cool. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Like I I know that sounds like. 

Speaker 4 

Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I mean the, the, the, the moment you have regret it’s. It’s like this. This like seed for toxicity, right? And and and and when that seed germinates and it takes root. It has horrible, horrible, horrible, negative impacts. Now, that doesn’t mean that doesn’t mean that that I’ve made dumb decisions. I haven’t made dumb decisions, ohboy. 

Samir Sharma 

Now you’ve just accepted what you’ve yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Oh, I’ve made. 

Speaker 3 

Yeah, of course. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I’ve made it fun. Yeah, bad. I’ve made a ton of bad decisions. I’ve heard I’ve made decisions that have hurt people I’ve made. I’ve made decisions that have hurt myself. I’ve done a lot of dumb dumb thing. But to sit and regret and beat myself up or those decisions becomes this tree of toxicity in your life that you can never really get over, and you’ll never learn. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, it’s yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, correct. Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Which is what we’re here to do. 

Samir Sharma 

Yep, yeah, true, true. What’s the best thing that happened to you this year? 

Malcolm Hawker 

Ohh the the the best thing. It is my wife and agreeing I don’t want to say agreeing cause she she wouldn’t she. She would kinda dislike me using that word. Maybe I’ll put it this way. My wife and I agreeing. To to take a. Leap and to take a jump and to leave our our previous nest and our concrete place and to try something new and to go to a new place in. 

Samir Sharma 

Right. 

Speaker 3 

Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

A new environment. And new state. And and and try something new at a. Relatively old age. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, wonder. Uh, no, it’s great. You almost you, you. You always need to try things new. So I, you know, I think it’s admirable which movie makes you laugh the hardest. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Oh my God. Movie. 

Samir Sharma 

Well, OK, if it’s not a movie. Maybe it’s a show? 

Malcolm Hawker 

Well, the, the, the, the, the hardest I’ve ever laughed. 

Speaker 5 

Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

The hardest I have ever laughed. There was a Speaking of, you know, television. Shows or series there was a. Series going back a number of years ago called Silicon Valley. 

Samir Sharma 

Malcolm Hawker 

It was the HBO produced here in the. US and who would have figured out? 

Samir Sharma 

I don’t, I haven’t. 

Malcolm Hawker 

In the UK, but it’s called, it’s called Silicon Valley. 

Samir Sharma 

Seen it? Yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

It’s the story of these these people who band together to create a software startup. 

Samir Sharma 

Right. 

Malcolm Hawker 

And in Silicon Valley and their their their peaks in their valleys and everything that goes through to create the software product and season. 

Samir Sharma 

Right. 

Malcolm Hawker 

One season finale. I’ve never. I’ve never laughed harder in my life and the reason. Why is because actors? Are all people I’ve hired for Manning. 

Samir Sharma 

Right. Or, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Right, so so the. Kind of the the the archetype of these people, right? 

Samir Sharma 

So for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Like the the reclusive software engineer, the slightly eccentric founder, the the the VC people with the big money and the flashy cars and and and these relatively young people trying to find their way in Silicon Valley. And I’ve spent a decent enough amount of time. There to know. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah. How it is, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Like is that that? That vibe, and I I don’t think I’ve ever laughed any harder now. Now, movies. One of one of my favorite has always made me laugh was coming to America. 

Samir Sharma 

Oh yes, that was hilarious. I must say that was fantastic. 

Malcolm Hawker 

That one’s. Like yes, yeah. 

Samir Sharma 

If you could teach one subject in school or college or university, whatever it might be, what would it be? 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yeah, I would. I would be teaching. Practical Data management 201. Right, the the the practical. 

Samir Sharma 

OK, 201. 

Malcolm Hawker 

But yeah, not 101, right? But but like some sort? 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, no, not 101. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Some sort of like slightly advanced course about how to actually get value out of data and how to quantify the business value of investments in data, right, which is just I mean. I’m I’m channeling my inner Doug Laney here. Right? But it’s it’s like like the we’ve just got to figure out how to connect data to business value and and we don’t need to get it like call it data as an asset we don’t. 

Samir Sharma 

You just don’t need to complicate it, you know? 

Malcolm Hawker 

We can. No, we can. We can get into these hair splitty arguments about fluid or really an asset or is it a liability? 

Speaker 3 

Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

It’s just sitting. There it’s not getting used, I don’t. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah. Or use it. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I don’t. I don’t care leveraging, right? 

Samir Sharma 

Use it, attribute it to revenue. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yeah, like teaching. A college course and how to do that? 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah. Brilliant. 

Malcolm Hawker 

And how to actually build models that show? How better data is influencing Better Business? 

Samir Sharma 

Yep, Yep. 3 words? Best describe your leadership style. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I hope, I hope. This is this is a self evaluation here, so obviously you’d have to have people who work for me to to validate or not, but I want. To say inspire. 

Samir Sharma 

Uh huh. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I I I want to inspire people, right, so that that’s that’s definitely one. 

Speaker 3 

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I will say, hands off, I I am most certainly a hands off leader. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah. Yeah, Yep, Yep. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I I I I I hate being micromanaged. Yeah, which means that I am. Constitutionally required to to, to. To be hands off in my leadership style because I don’t, I don’t, right. 

Samir Sharma 

Yes, yes, yes. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Let’s just call it supportive. 

Speaker 4 

1. Yeah, yeah, that’s good. 

Malcolm Hawker 

But I I think I think that I think a lot of that has to do with, with with setting clear expectations, right and and and that’s the kind of support that I mean right to me as a very hands off person, a very self driven person self motivated person. Just tell me what my boundaries are, right. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Tell me. Tell me. Tell me. Tell me my boundaries. Tell me my budget. Tell me my timeline. Tell me my constraints. Well, tell me the expectations that you have. To me, to me, that is the ultimate form of support, right? 

Speaker 3 

MHM, MHM. 

Malcolm Hawker 

What are my expectations? What are my boundaries? What are my constraints right? What what? And and let me go figure. It out and that’s that’s how I. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Try to manage as the leader. 

Samir Sharma 

Agreed, agreed. Maybe not yours. Maybe it’s your clients. But what? What would you say? Currently, the top three data challenges that you see out there either from, you know. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Governance, governance and governance. I mean, yeah, one most certainly governance, I mean I I I’m, I’m being I’m I’m being a little pithy but but yes, yeah it it remains a massive challenge for organizations. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

There there are very, very, you know, explainable reasons why separate podcast. But it remains a massive challenge. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I I will loosely say as a #2 because I’m trying to be broad here and and and. 

Speaker 3 

MMM MMM. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I I will I. Would just call it a data culture. 

Samir Sharma 

Malcolm Hawker 

Right, a culture and you could call it a data-driven culture, a data inspired, a data infused, a data, whatever. I don’t care but but but, but establishing a true kind of data centric culture within most organizations I think is a is a massive, massive challenge because what I see is getting back to my metaphor about money. Being exhaust data remains an exhaust. And we can, we can say as much as we want to say about being data is the new world and data-driven and dot dot dot it is is what I see is. 

Speaker 3 

MMMMMM. 

Malcolm Hawker 

It is still largely viewed. As the thing that comes as a result of business and not the focus of the business which which makes sense but but making making that shift from data as exhaust to data as grist. For for your, for your, for your business meal, I I think is is is a huge huge challenge and #3 I’ll say leadership. I and and I I think I think I can say this now two years ago, three years ago. I’m not sure I could have right. But but I think that there’s a real dearth of strong leadership in the data space. I I see it every day and I and it’s you know, about getting too wrapped up in technology, right and and continuing to fall down the pit of technology 1st and academic discussions about data, meshes and data, fabrics and data Mumbles and. 

Samir Sharma 

Yes, yes, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

All this other. Stuff like nobody cares, right? 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Nobody cares. Nobody in the business wants to have a conversation about how the. Sausage is made. Sorry, nobody does. 

Samir Sharma 

No, no, they don’t. You’re. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Right. And the data mesh may be the greatest thing since sliced bread. Yeah, I don’t know. But if you’re a data leader and you’re out there talking about this and this is something that is high on your. Priority you’re talking. About your business stakeholders with you should. Really reconsider, right? So just I would just call it. Loosely, a lack of leadership, right? We can continue to struggle with governance. We continue to struggle with being data and and outcome focused right and. I would these things are hard. I know they. I know they are hard. I know they’re incredibly challenging, but there, there are some things that we can be doing day. 

Samir Sharma 

Yep, Yep. 

Malcolm Hawker 

In and day. Out right that take determination that take a little bit of courage, right that that that that take kind of innovative leadership and bold leadership. 

Samir Sharma 

To change that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Speaker 4 

Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I know we can do it. 

Samir Sharma 

Yep, Yep. I often talk about being brave in in the way that we approach things and I. You know, my wife asked me that. I said, why? Why do you keep saying that? I said because I don’t feel that people are actually brave about it. You know, they don’t take you use that word bold. You know, it’s it’s it’s the narrative is let’s just do what everybody else is doing. Well, how are you? How is that gonna work? You know, though, you know what? 

Malcolm Hawker 

Right. 

Samir Sharma 

What does that mean for the competition? Then you’re doing everything the same, you know? 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yeah, I I get, I get it right there. 

Samir Sharma 

That is just. 

Speaker 4 

You’re wrong. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Are a lot. Of there are a lot of. 

Speaker 4 

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Headwinds, there’s a lot of forces within organizations that could motivate a data leader to not be innovative and to not challenge and to to to largely kind of take same old same old. And and and and and and probably. Fail to drive to drive meaningful results. I think I think true success here does require bravery. You’ve got to be able to walk out into that limb and be out there all alone when all of your, when all of your other peers are are are sticking to same old, same old who are hoarding their data, who are are, are being incentivized and and and managing their business processes for their individual. 

Speaker 3 

Yeah, yeah. 

Samir Sharma 

Correct. Correct. Yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Benefit and nobody else has benefited when they’re not taking care of their data and when they’re not taking care of other things. You need to be the one that walks out on that limb and say you know what I’m I’m. 

Speaker 3 

Yeah, absolutely, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I’m here as as a change agent and I’m going to. I’m going to drive change or I will. 

Speaker 3 

Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I will fell trying. But same old same old does not work. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, and the problem is the the word that you’ve just used most of those data leaders don’t actually know how to drive change. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Well, because most of them are operators, right? 

Samir Sharma 

Right. Yeah, we, you know exactly. And I I was about to say, it’s not their fault. It’s it’s just a a way that they’ve been born, you know, and progressed in their career. So I you know, it’s just that that there’s this. That’s why I think going back to that whole idea. Spend you know, three months, four months, a year, whatever it is in the business, learning exactly how it works. Learn how it makes money. Learn where you can use it to. You know Dr. new products or you know new revenue streams, whatever it is. But anyway, we could be on that again for a long time. Malcolm, what’s one thing you had to learn the hard way in your career? 

Malcolm Hawker 

Well, failures. OK. Failure is motivating. Failure is a fantastic learning experience. 

Samir Sharma 

Yes, and it should be a quick learning experience as. 

Speaker 5 

Well, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I mean, failure is OK. 

Speaker 3 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

And and again we can talk a big game as as leaders about promoting failure, about promoting a mindset, about promoting the things that would give somebody the freedom. 

Samir Sharma 

Yes, yes. 

Speaker 

To fail. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I don’t see. A lot of it. I still don’t see a lot of it. 

Speaker 3 

Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I see I see a lot of incentives that align to very, very. Specific goals that don’t allow for failure. 

Samir Sharma 

Yep, Yep. Agreed. Yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Failure is important. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What’s something you notice about someone when you first meet them? 

Malcolm Hawker 

That’s a good question. There there are obvious. Kind of visual things. 

Speaker 5 

Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

But the thing that I seem to notice more are highly intangible. And largely impossible to quantify. 

Samir Sharma 

OK, like I mean. 

Malcolm Hawker 

The the people that. Have been the most meaningful in my life, the. People that have been. Friends like the the people that have had a lot of influence, the people that I have opened myself to and I’m not honestly oddly, I’m not a very open person. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Speaker 3 

MHM, MHM. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Right. This, which kind of flies in the face of me being out there and being able to being in podcasts and everything. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

But but I’m I’m I’m generally fairly insular, but not because I’m I’m. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, but a lot of people are like that. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I’m negative or brooding or I’m just I’m. I just AM. Right. Maybe it’s that the. 

Speaker 3 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

The Scottish and Irish influence on me, but the people that I’ve I’ve opened to. I just knew it. 

Samir Sharma 

Right, right. I see what? I know what you mean. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Right. Just. 

Samir Sharma 

I I know. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Just knew. 

Samir Sharma 

I know what you mean instinctively. 

Malcolm Hawker 

It right and and yes and and why I don’t know. There have been people that I’ve opened to and that I’ve allowed myself to get to get close to, and I honestly think it’s a bit of a two way St. 

Speaker 3 

Hmm hmm. 

Malcolm Hawker 

and and and and I if you ask me to say why and how and quantify that I’m not entirely sure that I could. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I do understand that because it’s very similar with me. To very very similar happening or event I couldn’t say it’s because of somebody’s eyes. I couldn’t say it was because their handshake. I couldn’t say, you know, I I noticed the first thing it there is some implicit weird thing that goes on. 

Malcolm Hawker 

And I can’t. I can’t say that that, that can that can exist in a team environment as well. 

Speaker 3 

Hmm hmm. 

Malcolm Hawker 

And I have experienced that too where where there is a team vibe and there is something about it that transcends just a group of individuals. 

Samir Sharma 

Sure, sure. 

Malcolm Hawker 

And to this day, I mean, I maintain relationships through, it’s all through the computer, of course, because people get scattered to the wind. But I I have, I’ve had, I’ve. Had team experiences where I continue to have relationships with. Those teams to this day. Yeah, that are 20. Often even closer to 30 years old. I don’t know how you recreate that. I don’t know how you put that in a. But if you could figure it out, you’d be. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, I think. 

Malcolm Hawker 

You you’d be doing really, really well. 

Samir Sharma 

Yep, Yep. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I think I kind of look for. You know, is there a world where for however we do it, I don’t know whether it’s Google glasses or it’s the where where everything we do and every person we ever see tracked, right? Maybe we’re we’re some sort of headset or or some other, I don’t know what it is. Maybe it’s Google glasses or something. But, but I could envision a world where in the future, every person we ever see is track. And every person we ever see could be remembered. 

Samir Sharma 

Hmm I I think the remembrance thing is good. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Right. 

Samir Sharma 

I think the tracking thing. Is slightly. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Oh, it’s it’s creepy. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

But but where I’m. Going with it. Is that I’d be willing to bet that in the future I’ll probably be long gone, but I’d. Be willing to bet that in the future. That patterns will emerge. In us about who we see. And about who we interact with and who we spend time with. That were those patterns are explained by things we had no idea about. 

Right. 

Samir Sharma 

The the the internal algorithm. That is our bodies. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yes, or or our minds or or or or or or or or or kismet or or, you know faith or or some other something where we could actually start to put some math behind that. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Brain waves or whatever it might be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Say well, actually you know what? This person’s father and this other person’s father, they did. They knew each other 100 years ago. Or something. I don’t know what it is like, but I I think that in time. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, I I, I get where you go. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Right, so so. I I I think that in time like today we create social networks by opting in. To those social. 

Samir Sharma 

And they only go so far, you know? 

Malcolm Hawker 

And I think that in the future that. We will expose. Social networks that were completely and totally unconscious. That would help explain why we have affiliation to some people and where why we feel an affiliation to some people and why we feel that we don’t have that with other. 

Samir Sharma 

Those things happened. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I’m guessing I probably won’t be around, but hopefully one day, you know, I’ll finally get. To you know, I don’t know. In my next life. Anyway, my final question to you, Malcolm Hawker, what would you like to be remembered for? 

Malcolm Hawker 

I would like to be remembered as. Oh man. It’s it’s tough, personal versus professional. 

Samir Sharma 

Whichever do it you can do both. I mean, you know, if you want. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Yeah, well, so. So personally I would. I would like to be remembered as a loyal, honorable, loving, devoted. Husband, I’d like to be remembered as as that. Yeah, cause that’s my. That’s my daily life. That’s that’s why I get out of bed every morning professionally. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I would like to be remembered as a. Productive, insightful, knowledgeable, caring, supportive teacher. For lack of a better word, I think teacher works where I’d like to be. 

Samir Sharma 

Yeah, yeah. 

Malcolm Hawker 

I’d like to be remembered as somebody who was willing to share what they knew and willing to help other people grow. Through whatever insights that I could provide. 

Samir Sharma 

Perfect. Well, on that note, Malcolm, it’s been wonderful to speak to you. I’ve had a really good time, actually, certain things that have come out have made me chuckle. Where we where our, where our minds collide. But thank you so much for your time and all of your responses and really great to understand. 

Malcolm Hawker 

Thanks for having me. 

Samir Sharma 

Who Malcolm is. Thank you. 

Malcolm Hawker 

It’s been a lot of fun. Thanks, Samir.